The Good, the Bad, and the Grey: Examining Motherhood on Grey’s Anatomy with Megan Vos
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Is there a show that you’ve been watching for a really long time and you don’t know why? For me, this is Grey’s Anatomy. The show has definitely derailed a bit from its original cast and even plot and it’s becoming harder and harder to watch these days. It’s hard to deny how captivating the show was in its prime and in rewatching recently, I’ve especially noticed all of the nuanced ways that motherhood is represented. Joining me today to talk about the good, the bad, and the “Grey” this week is Megan Vos, an amazing writer, Motherscope’s new Community Coordinator, and fellow Grey’s and Shonda Rhimes fan. You’ll hear about the characters we can relate to most, the impact of having Shonda Rhimes as the creator of the show, and much more. Whether you’re a fan or not, I think you will appreciate the characters we talk about and the situations they find themselves in.
TOPICS DISCUSSED
The mom guilt that is a consequence of rushing and how Megan and I combat this on a daily basis
The things that have been lost from the earlier seasons of Grey’s Anatomy and the characters that Megan connects with most
How Dr. Miranda Bailey is the best representative of motherhood which makes her easy to connect with
The way Shonda Rhimes created her own story of motherhood and how that might influence the way it's represented on her shows
Praise for Cristina Yang as she chooses an alternate path to motherhood – always choosing herself and how this is the opposite of selfish
How Grey’s Anatomy highlights the double standard that exists between mothers and fathers, especially in relation to mom guilt
The dichotomy between Meredith and Cristina as two women who choose two very different paths but remain best friends
Why Megan and I believe that Grey’s Anatomy is worthy of the Mom Advocate stamp
RESOURCES MENTIONED
WRITING PROMPT
Write your own definition of what it means to be a good mother.
GUEST BIO
During non-pandemic times, MEGAN VOS produces Listen to Your Mother, a live show featuring local writers’ stories about motherhood. Now, she has shamelessly embraced Peloton spin classes and bread baking, and finds solace hiking in the mountains above her Boulder, CO home. Megan loves to ski with her family and try new recipes with her partner. Her writing has been published in the Birth Stories and Radical Mama editions of Motherscope and in The Kindred Voice. You can read more of Megan’s writing on her (now rarely updated because: pandemic) blog, www.familygrowsup.com.
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Jackie Leonard 00:15
Hi, Megan, welcome to the podcast.
Megan Vos 00:19
Hi, Jackie. Glad to be here.
Jackie Leonard 00:21
Yeah, this is your second appearance on the podcast. And the first time we will link Megan's interview in the show notes. But the first time she shared about her motherhood experience in the pandemic, and that was one of the early episodes in season one. But today we're going to be talking about a show that we mutually enjoy Grey's Anatomy, if you haven't heard of it, it is this the show that never ends, I think it's in its 17th season, probably going to have an 18 season. But we're going to talk more about the early seasons, which I really appreciate that that's where you have most experience viewing and we can kind of ignore the later seasons. But I'll share more about that later. Before we get into that, though, Megan, can you introduce, introduce yourself for those listening?
Megan Vos 01:17
Yeah, I'm Megan, and I live in Boulder, Colorado with my partner. And we have two daughters who are both in elementary school. I am a former stay at home mom. And I keep thinking about that. Because I was home with my daughters for the past decade and have sort of like recently found myself working a few part time jobs that kind of add up to a more full time job. So I am producing a show listen to your mother, which happens every year. And it's a live show that features local writers sharing different stories about motherhood. I'm also the community coordinator for mothers scope writers Club, which I'm really excited about, we've been working hard to get that up and running. And by the time you hear this, it will be open. And I'm also substitute teaching at my daughter's Elementary. So those are my current different roles that I'm combining together. And
Jackie Leonard 02:25
you know, I've been thinking a lot about this, because there's all these labels that we assigned to ourselves, even on top of being a mom where it's like, you're the stay at home mom, you're the working mom, you're the work from home mom, you're the I don't know, other things that there are. And I always wonder like, what, what am I because I A can kind of oscillate between, you know, working mom, stay at home. Work from home mom? And I mean, I don't know, I I did a recent podcast episode on the show working moms and I'm like, aren't we all working? Is it also isn't doesn't being a mom also just sort isn't like a kind of like a? What's that phrase where it's like to, to the same things back to back like are like working. And moms like motherhood is work all these things I don't know, to unpack. So I'm glad that you referenced your newest role as the community coordinator, I was gonna mention that in the intro. And we've had a lot of FaceTime this week, preparing for this writer's club. And also, we just finished our mother writer retreat, which was amazing. And a nice little intro to the writers club that we are launching very soon at the time of this recording. And like Megan said, it will be open and in the first few weeks when this episode airs. So that's really exciting. Before we get into grace, I want to you know, go through our what do we feel guilty of this week to, you know, clear our consciences and get it off our chests. So, do you have something in mind, Megan, that you would want to share that you're feeling guilty of this week?
Megan Vos 04:21
You and I even you know, I wrote about this during the retreat a little bit. And that was actually what made me think like, oh, this is what I'm feeling guilty about. So it was one of those instances of writing, uncovering something that I had been thinking about but didn't really process yet. And I have been feeling guilty about how much I'm rushing my kids around right now. I think after the pandemic, I mean, I know we're still in it. But after all the lockdowns and closures like when things opened up, I like signed us up for every possible thing like my kids asked to do an activity and I was like, Yeah, great. Let's do it. And so we just started a little bit of were scheduled and I think the maybe my underlying guilt is that I way over scheduled our spring. And my sort of the way it's manifesting is that we're just constantly in a hurry. And so I've been feeling a little bit guilty about that, like, my poor 10 year old, like, I wake her up and we call it the mom helper, which is like, I literally call her out of her bed. And she's been doing her math homework in the morning. So it's like, she's starting her day with me, like swinging her legs out of her bed, putting her math homework in front of her. And it's just like, a sickening, like, I wouldn't want to be starting my days like this. So I think will maybe be happy when summer break comes.
Jackie Leonard 05:42
Yeah, I still resonate with this idea of rushing whenever I have, like the presence of mind to like, pause and put myself in, in their shoes, like not literally in their shoes, because I'm doing that's usually when I'm trying to rush getting shoes on. But when I try to like put myself in their place, I think about like, gosh, like are this all day here for me is like, Hurry, let's go, let's go come on. And like how, how much like we as adults respond to when somebody is trying to like forcibly rush us to move on to the next thing. But yeah, I just feel like it's this little constant battle. So I so relate to that. You have two girls. So the thing that I'm feeling a little guilty of or maybe like insecure about right now is being able to do my daughter's hair. I have never felt like very confidence in like my own styling of my hair. Like I've, I've always seen the people who, like have their hair blown out every day or have it nice and like wavy. And I have aspired to do that. For my whole life. There was like a period of time, I think in high school that I like, had it had somewhat felt like I could kind of imitate it. But I never felt really confident in it. I have like a ton of hair, like deceptively and so like blow drying it never like always took way longer than I thought it seemed to take. Anyways, that's the whole point of this is that my daughter is I you know, I had my son, everyone, you know, he has wonderful hair that kind of like does its own thing. And you know, boys have it just a little easier traditionally with the hair thing. And now that my daughter's hair is starting to get a little longer, and it's starting to get an interface. And so I've been wanting to be like, okay, like, let me start, like brushing it and seeing what I could do with it. And I've been putting it in little, like pigtails and things like that. But I have no clue how to do it in a way that looks like what I see other people doing. And I mean, maybe this is a lesson in the like, comparison game, but I rarely feel put together and I feel self conscious that I can't put my own kids together
Megan Vos 08:01
like a constant thing in our house, like, I don't know, like, do you have to brush it? Do you have to sleep with it in a braid? So it's not tangled? Like how much are we going to actually discuss hair? Because yeah, I totally hear
Jackie Leonard 08:16
you. Yeah, and my daughter has recently rejected having bath time. So I'm like, I cannot let you be dirty. Like I'm not one of those moms. That's gonna be like, I'm not ever gonna wash you. But um, I was like, come on, how do I get this kid in the bathtub to wash her hair because the drama, the dramatics of hair washing is again, another whole topic. I'm battling currently. So anyway, now that I've gotten that off my chest and now that you have we can talk about grace and a good segue is I love Christina's hair. Always look at her hair and just see how like wild it is. And I'm sure an effort goes into having it look the way it does, but, and rewatching some of these scenes and just like man, she has good hair I love I love it when it's like, yeah, yeah. Are you gonna say?
Megan Vos 09:14
No, I was noticing like, I was rewatching that scene where Meredith? Like, takes Zoella before she adopts her in season eight I mean, I guess she's I don't know if she's technically like has been adopted or not because as we'll discuss it and skipping around, but Meredith like her hair just looks like she's like in one of those like blowers, I think models, you know, stand in front of her shoots. Like how do you look like this when you're like in the midst of a mental breakdown. So anyway.
Jackie Leonard 09:45
I have noticed Meritus as well and she represents the like hair that I'm always like, Oh, I wish I could make it look like that. And I even even though we know it's acting right? I'm like, How does she do that when she's a doctor and she's having fun questions all day? Like, how could she leave her hair like that? When she's seeing patients like, I have my hair in a bun all the time, like, if I was a doctor, it would be in about I don't know, anyways, obviously, this is not real life.
Megan Vos 10:14
myself doing my hair today because I let it dry instead of putting it in the messy bun, which would be wet for 24 hours. So, you know, there we go with, like our different standards of like, yeah, you're doing is?
Jackie Leonard 10:26
Well, it's very nice, make it thank you for letting it air dry today. Mine isn't ABA. And I'm like taking a break from the attempts after our retreat. So I'm getting into Gray's I would love to kind of hear what your relationship has been as a viewer and why, you know, you wanted to talk about this show, in particular with me on the podcast.
Megan Vos 10:50
So I think that when you put the call out for I think on Instagram for what are your guilty pleasures. You know, Grey's Anatomy was the first one that came to mind. And I started watching it was in I remember the year 2006. And it was maybe I think you don't hit it only been on maybe for one season. And I got the first season on Netflix, like when Netflix was like they'd mail you the DVD and the red envelope. Because a friend had told me to watch it. And I was 25. So like about the same age, I'm imagining as some of the characters were. And like the, like the first year residents, you know, those characters. And I could just really identify, I think at the time with like them being in the beginnings of their careers and trying to figure things out. And I was just starting grad school for education. So obviously not med school, but like sort of in that similar similar situation, I think of sort of being an adult for the first time. And my friends who I lived here with when we first all moved to Colorado together, called ourselves freshmen in life when we moved here, because it was sort of like being at the beginning of grown output. And so the show really like resonated with me for a lot of reasons pertaining to that. And I think I watched the first six or so seasons, and then it got really intense. I mean, it gets intense a lot of times, but when I was pregnant with my daughter, there was a really intense episode. And I had nightmares about it and then stopped watching then. And then last year in the middle of the winter, when my kids finally went back to school after being home for however many months drink COVID I had all these grand plans for like, I mean, if not like things I would do at least like for things that I could watch that were like really good recently come out with like, you know, I remember there was like the show, I can't remember it was called like above a chess player, Queens Gambit or Kings game, but I don't know that everybody was watching. And like, there's the show about Queen Elizabeth that like I really wanted to like want to watch them. But I just needed something that was a lot more comforting, I think or familiar. And I totally gravitated to those early seasons of Grey's again and like I would bring my kids to school climate My bed was like snowing and you know, winter. And I would just watch so I binged like the first four seasons again last winter. In the pandemic.
Jackie Leonard 13:31
Yeah, and you know, you, there's something about, we might get into this more later. But there's something about the earlier seasons compared to the later seasons that I have continued to watch where in those earlier seasons, we I feel so like, I can, like you reference, like I can relate so much to, you know, being kind of like, you know, new to a job or a life transition. Like they're, they're in their mid 20s, I think, at the start of the show, and so we can remember what it felt like even like you said, if you have not been a med students or through a residency program, and now they're like, the characters that we care the most about, are like at the top like there are these mega, you know, godlike surgeons who are world renowned and like, very accomplished and so professional, like, deep into their professions. And I'm like, I'm not there yet. I cannot relate. And some other struggles, like even their personal ones just feel so removed as a result. So I think that's some of what I feel like has been lost from that we had so well done in those early seasons. You can reference the episode that you said that was the traumatic one because I think maybe a lot of people who have watched the show will probably relate.
Megan Vos 14:56
Yeah, it was in season six when there's the mass shooting We're at the hospital. And that was the last one that I watched until this past few weeks when I've been preparing for this episode and what have watched them season seven and season eight.
Jackie Leonard 15:12
Yeah. And that became like a trend for a number of years in Grey's where they were like, getting to a point where I was like, Okay, are you just looking for like the most dramatic awful thing to put on the show to put these characters in because like, I can't handle it, it was like too real. And like years later this like mass shooting, like terrible. I don't know if I can rewatch that episode now. Like just knowing just how deeply raw it would be. You know, given how much that is so prevalent. Today, there's a show, I don't know, if you watched it called. It was like a teen show. One Tree Hill. It's one of the ones that I like, grew up with, out of high school. And they had a school shooting episode. And at the time, it felt very like. Like it hadn't been done before on TV. And like, it wasn't like maybe like Columbine, and some of those shootings had happened. But it wasn't like as deep into it in our world, or in our country as it was at the time. And even then I was just like, I can't watch this, like I'm still in college, like, this is really intense. So anyways, all that to say, as Grace likes to really like, have some traumatic moments happen that are really close to home. And I've I've even the fourth upcoming one, Megan's been rewatching, or re watching for the first time, some of the later seasons. And I was like, heads up, there's a plane crash. That happens. It's really traumatic. And, you know, later down the line, there's like a few character deaths that like really got to me, and I had to like stop watching the show for a while. Because anyway, all that to say grace has highs and it has lows. And today, we're not really diving into the traumas of Grey's Anatomy, so you don't have to worry, we're actually going to be getting into how motherhood is represented on the show. And there's so many examples, we really had to focus on a select few, and we still have a lot to say about them. Before that, though, I meant to ask, Who is the character and the watching of Grey's that you've watched maybe most recently, that you feel like most interested in or can relate to the most?
Megan Vos 17:30
Yeah, when I rewatch, I was trying to think about who my favorite characters were when I first was watching. And I think it's hard for me to pick I mean, I think Christina just because I think she's the most interesting and dynamic. And then I know we're going to talk about this, but reading Shonda Rhimes, his book, The Year of Yes, and reading about her own relationship to creating that character. I would say she's my favorite. But also, I think, initially, it was really the relationships sort of themselves almost as a character, like the way that the characters connect to each other, that I loved more than any one particular character when I was first watching. And now I think I feel sort of the most connection to or empathy for Bailey when I rewatched. Like you've just sent me a scene right before we hopped on. And it was from season eight, and it's when Bailey is picking up, tuck her son who's five at the time from daycare, and they can't find him and she has this moment of total panic. And watching that was hard. But you know, the part that really, I mean, it's only a two minute clip that I was watching but the part that really got to me was when she saw her son, and she made that switch from like, I am in panicking mom mode to now I am in like, Oh, let me make everything okay for my child mode. And just seeing sort of that code switching that we as moms do all of the time. That really resonated with me, and I think especially you know, we've had some really traumatic times in Boulder. Over the past year, we've had our own mass shooting, there was a terrible wildfire where 1000 homes burned last December and I think having that experience so constantly of having to like be doing the logistics and be doing the panicking and then switch to make things okay for my kids is just something that I think Bailey's character really shows us like in a lot of different places in the show.
Jackie Leonard 19:40
Yeah, and that especially was why sent that clip to you. I was like one thing to just show like the panic of you know, a possible like losing your child. I think it's, I must they must have intentionally done it to where it was like so short, but it felt so long. In the moment, but I loved like you pointed out how it showed how quickly she had to, like, snap out of it. So that her child wasn't like, you know, concerned, she was like, okay, you know, I have to pull together and the character of Bailey, I feel like is the one who really taps into the anxieties of motherhood. I mean, she later later and later seasons, I believe she's diagnosed with OCD, but like, I think some of that is triggered by like just a lot of just different like very high stress traumas that she's had to be in as a doctor at, you know, gray, the Grey's Anatomy hospital. It's had a few names over the years, so I don't even know what to call it. It's like, what's it called? What's like the first one to even remember? Seattle case? Okay. So, um, so naturally, I mean, it's not even surprising that she has all these, you know, panic disorders after all those years at that hospital. But, but as a mom, she I think she represents just so much of the like, insecurities of motherhood, the pressures, the anxieties, the fears, the worries, motherhood, other characters in the show, our mothers, but I feel like Bailey is the one that feels the most like calm, like the common thread that the one that most of moms probably see and say, like, oh, yeah, I've been there. And then some of the other characters kind of approach motherhood in different ways or have different attitudes towards it. So maybe it's more unique to certain circumstances, but I feel like Bailey really does like I feel her I feel those feelings very deeply in watching her on the show, I also think when I first watched it, I, I think I've brought this up in past seasons. My younger self, I think, was a lot harder on the, the woman characters that I watched, and I gravitated towards the male characters. And it's feels weird to say now that I'm older, but I think very, I think I gravitated to some of the male characters or was just more interested in them. And I found that some of the women characters were more frustrating. And so I, I didn't really quite identify or feel like I was drawn to any of them. When I first started watching it, like here and there. But then when I really sat down and watched it from starts through, like a number of seasons, really drawn to Christina as well. And also like the dynamic of Meredith and Christina, and those early years was fun, because they were like, they called themselves like dark and twisty. And they were kind of moody and like not very chipper and I liked that I always liked also like the dynamic of Bailey with the other characters as well because she just really like, you know, competence in her role as like a teacher or the one who's like the mentor character, but she's she definitely like those not baby them. She's very much like very hard on those interns, and I just love like that, like seeing her in that role and how she kind of like scares them and stuff and, and so that's really fun. You did mention Shonda Rhimes in Europe. Yes. And I want to bring that up before we like get into some of the other scenes because I think part of what makes Grey's so special to me is my like, adoration or just like, fan like, I really love Shonda Rhimes, and I read your OBS, I believe in like 2018 or 2019 for the first time. And it really like so much of it was just like, I don't know, I loved reading it. I couldn't like identify any one thing. But I just remember loving reading a book about a writer about somebody who like lives writing in her bones is a very like a natural storyteller. And then hearing just her thought process behind different things that I was familiar with, that she had created and done was just really cool. So it made me just gain this whole new respect for her. And she does talk about being a mom at the time I was a new mom. So so many of those sentiments really resonated for me as well. What was your experience like reading your abs and takeaways?
Megan Vos 24:41
Yeah, absolutely. I read it, maybe only a couple of years ago, and then just reread it. When we were talking about during the podcast because I wanted to go back and look specifically at the way she talked about motherhood. And you know, one thing I thought was interesting about it when I think about her motherhood experience. And the way that she writes about motherhood on Grey's Is that she was very clear about wanting to be a mom. And pretty straightforward. He wanted to be a mom, she didn't want to be a wife. There's a big part in the book about her sort of realizing that she had crafted this story about being ready to get married. And then realizing that she was, you remember, she uses this metaphor of like laying track, and that she was sort of like creating this train track. And she does that in her shows where it's like, she's laying the tracks, she's building it, and that she had sort of done that, like, created a storyline for herself. That wasn't a true story about marriage, but that she was going to create another story about motherhood, and that she had this very clear desire to be a mom, she had her kids, I think now, I can't remember if she was three, I think she was three kids. And I don't remember, like how many, but some are by adoption, and some are by surrogate, and, you know, at least one of each will do the math will add up to three. And the way that she talks about motherhood, I was just rereading this passage specifically about Mommy Wars and her saying, like, we think that it's sort of, sort of like what you and I were talking about, like, stay at home mom versus single moms. But she was saying that for her, the only war is this internal pressure, which goes so well with the theme of this season of mom guilt. And that, you know, she tells this story about being at a PTO meeting and someone saying that for each bake sale, you were required to make a homemade baked good, and she was like, no, like, I'm not doing that. That's not how I mother and sort of owning that, like, that's just not who I'm going to be. And the way that she has really had to, I guess I would say both had to but also been able to, like create the motherhood that she wants, like she has. She's really explicit in the book about having help, and how, when we don't make it explicit that we have helped that we're doing moms everywhere, a huge disservice. And I totally agree with that. I mean, I think pretty much every mom who just lived through the past two years of a pandemic, and identify with how essential it is to have support and childcare. And just the way that she talks about the kind of mom that she was and wasn't going to be. I just really loved reading that. And I think seeing somebody say it or hearing somebody reading somebody actually say what I think so many of us feel.
Jackie Leonard 27:49
Yeah, and I by the time I read that book, I knew that she had created Grey's, she had created a couple other shows, as well. And so she's this very successful showrunner and producer and writer and I was like, hearing you know, I mean, having that vision of her and then reading her admit these things made me be like, Oh, okay, like, I don't know, it just really helped. I guess see that even like, I don't know how to like verb, like, articulate this, but just being able to see that she could so honestly reveal where she fell short. And where she depended on other people so that she could have all these things, like, didn't make me feel like oh, I can never have that and had like the opposite effect. It like made me feel like okay, like, this is something that we all go through. And we can all like, create great things. And I correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember there being this time in in that book where she talks about, oh, gosh, no, I like I lost my thought but I will I will share I did pull it up and it says that she adopted her first daughter in 2002 and adopted another daughter, her other daughter, she adopted in 2012. And then in 2013, she had her third daughter via gestational surrogacy. So So yeah, she has three daughters and two adopted one through surrogacy. And I love that she What I love about her is because I think she's a writer. She's so like introspective, and she talks at times I think I remember her sharing like, kind of living in this like pseudo fantasy states where she had some very, like, much separate. You know, what's real and what's like something that I've like, created in my mind, because, as somebody who has like immersed or yourself in like stories that I wanted to write or was creating or characters I was creating. I think it can be very easy to like, see something or think something's real, and it's really not. And maybe I sound like a cookie person, but reading Shonda Rhimes talk about it, I was like, okay, like, that's why I feel this way sometimes. And for her to be like, You know what, being a mom, I really wanted to be a mom, I really didn't, I didn't see so much. I thought that I had to, you know, be married and have all these things, and I don't, and that kind of fearlessness, that kind of like trailblazing mentality that she, she lives in her life is so inspiring. And I see how that her being that way translates into the character she creates, and the storylines that she's like, pushed forth.
Jackie Leonard 30:53
I remember what I was gonna say earlier is, she talked at some point, what really I felt empowered by, that's what it was that I loved, that she shared, knowing how successful she was, she said, when you see me getting this award, I'm on this TV show, know that I'm missing, you know, the ballet recital, or I'm like dropping the ball, like, my kids are upset with me, when I'm, you know, not doing so great on the show. And like the, it's, it's not having a great season. I'm like, killing it with my kid. You know, I mean, so she talks about how there isn't that, you know, in her own way, she's talking about how this balance that we we expect or, or even what I find myself feeling is like, I want to excel in at least these three areas, like being a mom, being a wife, in my professional, whatever, like, I would love to feel like I'm doing great, and all those things at the same time. Like how wonderful and she's kind of like, I've accepted that that's not reality, like, I just have to figure out like, Okay, if I did really great in this, you know, last month, I'm gonna, you know, step away a little bit and work on this area. And that really, I think, stuck with me. And I really respected her saying that, and she shares this example of how she can be present and show up for her kids. And I don't know, I don't know if she actually says this verbatim, but I got the sense, like, she doesn't really like playing like playing with her kids. But she like forces herself, I think she like sets a timer for like 10 minutes, and we'll sit and give them her full attention. And she'll play with them or do whatever they want for those, like 1015 20 minutes, whatever she has assigned for herself. And she talks about that being enough. And I love that because it's like, we think so much that we have to like, even like a whole day, I have to be present for my kids all day, or you know, all this stuff. And it's just like, it's not possible. And like maybe for some people, it's a lot easier, but she knew she knows herself. And she's not like beating herself up over her, you know, having different things that she enjoys and doesn't and recognizing those. And at the same time, she does bring up a lot of the things that she struggles with and is insecure about and you know, all those so it's she's not painting this picture picture of I'm, I figured it all out, I'm perfect. But I loved kind of that approach and that that confidence that she carries and the ability to say this works for me, this doesn't and I'm not going to force myself to like fit into this box that isn't going to work out well for anybody.
Megan Vos 33:35
Yes, yeah, totally. And the way that she talks about how, you know, this, all of these ideas that we have about and I think it really it's our own insecurities that get in the way of us really being able to connect where it's like, if you're constantly saying like, Oh, I didn't make enough, I didn't make a good enough preschool snack or, you know, I didn't homemade, like baked homemade cookies like that is getting in the way of the bigger issues. Like we all need to be banding together as moms and like helping each other to make things better for all of us instead of like, sort of focusing on these little things, you know, and I like how she talks about that in the book. Like she uses this army metaphor and one of the chapters where she's like, leave no mom behind, you know, like, we've all got to work together to focus on the real issues that are facing moms.
Jackie Leonard 34:26
Yeah, the first thing that came to mind when you were talking as I always inevitably start to feel guilty about being a parent like not being a Pinterest mom, when like holidays are coming up and so like with Easter coming I've and I don't fault the moms who do this. So you know if this is you and you're sharing it like please don't take that personally but like, I know where it comes from I see on Instagram, like people sharing the Easter baskets that they're putting together for their kids and I'm just like, oh yeah, to get something Experienced are I'd like inevitably I start to self compare to compare myself with those situations. Oh, look at how cute they did. They got things that weren't all plastic and junk, they got these really cute little wooden baskets and they're making a craft and okay, I need to do that now. And all of a sudden, the the joy of like doing that with your kids feels compromised because I'm trying to like, create something that I don't even know that they actually want. Like my kids, I'm speaking to my kids, you know, with my son really care if I like, you know, created this fun craft activity. I mean, rarely he enjoys those he likes to play in the dirt with cars. So like, maybe I should focus on that. So anyways, we brought up I want, like we brought up your OBS because I feel like first of all, those of you listening should add it to your reading list. It's a it's a fun read. It's like one of those books where somebody's like, oh, what should I read? That's like a great one that I like to recommend because it's not too long. And it's not quite like a memoir. And it's not really like a self help. It's just like she is such a great storyteller that she anything like her talking about, you know, PTA bakeries is interesting, because she's like such a fun. She has such a great voice as a writer. And who Shonda Rhimes is, I really feel informed so much of the characters that she created for Grey's Anatomy. This is the first show that she was a showrunner for she became a show, I think she was in her early to mid 30s, when she, you know, was able to get Grey's Anatomy off the grounds. And I find that super like, like, it's feels crazy in retrospect to compare myself but like, also to know kind of she was an early early mom when she did this. And she, she even shared that she created this show kind of in that early motherhood haze. I can't remember when it launched, I mean, I guess like in the first few years of being a mom is when she, she really put together and got Grey's Anatomy off the ground. We're going to actually jump ahead, we have a few different episodes and like kind of plot clots that surrounded motherhood that we gravitated to that we want to talk about. We are talking about things that occur between seasons one and eight. So just to like, as a frame of reference, and I said earlier, we're in season 17. Now so this is a few years back if you haven't watched these seasons. So some of it might be spoilers but but I think we're going to jump into first a big storyline that was in the end of season seven, early season a regarding Christina, Christina Yang's character. And Meredith, Meredith Grey, who are both basically dropped into motherhood and in unique ways or motherhood is impacting their lives in unique ways. And they're taking very different paths. And I never realized until I sat down and we looked at these, these scenes and these plotlines that they happened at the same time, and I'm learning so much about the writers of TV shows and movies and how intentional all these things are that we as viewers don't quite realize unless we look at it. So, in season seven, Christina finds out she's pregnant. And her character was pregnant once before and she had an ectopic pregnancy. She mentions at the time, it was earlier in the show, so she was too young. Like she was an intern at the time, so just like there's no way I can have a baby right now. So her getting an abortion or having choosing to eventually get an abortion seemed kind of like okay, like that makes sense. And she ended up having an ectopic pregnancy and lost the, you know, the pregnancy ended as a result. Jump ahead
Jackie Leonard 39:23
to the end of season seven. Christina is now obviously further into her career. I don't remember the levels of Dr. Hood, but she's like, progressed a few like five or plus years into her career. She's married, and she finds out she's pregnant. And in season seven, Episode 22. She finds out she's pregnant and she knows all pretty instantly, but she does not want to proceed with this pregnancy. So you had not seen this this episode before and I had you watch Yeah, and what were some of the things that you observed and watching the scenes with Christina? In that, in that arc, you know, I, it might spill over into the next episode. But yeah,
Megan Vos 40:11
yeah. You know, the conversations between her and her husband, I thought, were just so well done, where he is sort of trying to convince her and saying, I know you'll love it. And she and her saying, like, loving it is not the point. And she said, like, I'm not a monster, like, I will love a child, if I have it. Like, that's not the concern. But her saying, like, I don't want to be a mother and knowing that so deeply. That really stood out to me and her saying to him, like, hey, how much do you love me and him saying a lot? You know, that was another conversation where she said, like, how much do you love me? And he said, I love you so much. And she said, then you need to be here for me, when I make a decision to not have a baby. And, you know, it also, I think, is really telling about her and Meredith's friendship to that. Meredith was sort of went to Christina at one point, I think it was in maybe season eight, episode one, and narratives like, hey, maybe like, we can do this together. Like, because Meredith was in the adoption process and saying, like, I'm going to be a mom, you can be a mom. And Christina said to her, you need to be my person. And that's a theme. I mean, that's a recurring line throughout the whole show about sort of them being each other's real person. And she said, Owen is not there for me and you need to be and Meredith sort of, she got it, not sort of she totally got it.
Jackie Leonard 41:43
Yeah, I I really the line of her saying like, of course, I love that. I'm not I'd love it. I'm not a monster i That one really stuck with stuck with me. I hadn't seen that episode in years. And I remember that line and that moment very vividly. Because there's like this, this assumption from from people and her husband, oh, and kind of represents that as that kind of type of person where it's like, you, you think you don't want to be a parent, you really like it, just wait until you try it out. And she's kind of like, I can't like tribe. And she even says to him at some point, like, there's no compromise, you can't have half a baby. Because he's like, trying to negotiate with her. And she's just kind of, and I can't remember when it happens. It might have been like, a few episodes sooner as like, I like plant the seed kind of thing. Or I don't remember when it happened. Exactly. But there was a moment when she says something like, in regard to another like a patient and she says, some off putting comment about like never wanting to be a mom or, or like, Oh, thank God, I don't have to be feel do deal with that. And he was like, you, you wouldn't want to be a mother. And she's like, have you met me? Because I think at the at the core of like, the conflict between her and her husband is like if she feels, if you knew if you really knew me, like, you wouldn't even be surprised, like you would know that I don't want to be a mom. And I think actually, she she said it at some point very clearly. And that's like, where there's all this tension is like he feels so wronged by her having this decision and not including him in the process. And she had, she had been clear, and he thought that she would change her mind. He thought like he made assumptions about what it meant when she said I don't want to be a mum. And somehow he thought oh, you know, she'll change your mind later. And, and how often have you like heard that, you know, in you know, just in, you know, amongst people? When? Yeah,
Megan Vos 43:49
there's this part in Europe. Yes. Where Shonda Rhimes is writing about how she, for her, like, being a stay at home mom and a working mom like she was she's for her. Being a mom is not work. And she said, It's who you are. It fundamentally alters everything about you. And so you can really see that in this scene, you know, that she is saying, Christina is saying, If I'm a mom, then that changes everything for me. And it changes the kind of surgeon she'll be it changes the kind of partner she'll be. And that she, it's for oh, and I think he thinks like if he says something like, well, I'll do it and like, she's like, you know, that doesn't not make me a mom. Like no matter how much help she has or support she has or no matter how much they share the childcare. She knows that being a mom will change everything.
Jackie Leonard 44:45
Yeah, and I love that you make that distinction. And that it's not the actual act of becoming a mom she knows the rest. I mean, she respects motherhood in such a deep way. She knows that she has to opt, like, that's not the path for her, she should opt out of it because she knows. She's thinking about the child on the other side. And I am sure I don't have the exact quote, but I'm sure he calls her selfish at different times, he makes, he makes comments about her only making decisions for herself. And I'm just like, she's really not. She's really like thinking about this other, you know, this other light, like, what life will look like. And she's not thinking about just her in that situation. And also, like, who cares? Like, she's, like, that's not a problem. If that's all she was thinking about. That's not a problem. But she isn't just thinking about herself in this situation. And that becomes very clear, later, and maybe you could share about this scene when Meredith, I think this is in season eight, episode one. When Meredith talks to Owen, who has Christina's husband about the situation,
Megan Vos 46:01
I was just gonna bring that up because she says, If you do this, I mean, if you sort of pressure her in to make a decision to have the baby, then she's going to resent you. She's going to resent the baby. And Meredith says, As the daughter of a Christina right, Ellis Gray was the was a famous surgeon who hadn't wanted to be a mom. And Meredith said, like, it's pretty awful to be the child of that surgeon.
Jackie Leonard 46:36
Yeah, of somebody who didn't want her. And so she's basically like, I knew, I knew, I was very aware that my mom did not want me, like as the product of somebody like Christina, like don't do this. And that was like, oh, like, that just got to me so deeply. And she basically says, like, Christina has not gone through with this abortion, because of you. Right? And like, that's why she's saying, Yeah, don't do this to her. Don't put her in that position. Because there's, there's a, it has long lasting impacts. Right, you know, that you're not really considering, because you're just seeing, yeah,
Megan Vos 47:15
love is not going to be the same. That's not going to be the same partner for you, if this is what she ends up doing, because of the pressure.
Jackie Leonard 47:25
Yeah. And what becomes especially frustrating for their relationship moving forward is that it's very obvious that he wants and deserves to, like, if he wants to have a family, he very much deserves that. But he's still trying to, like, make it work with her. And that just, it's not something like she says earlier that you can compromise on. So anyway, not to that foreshadowed anything for you. But that I mean, it's eventually why they just like don't work.
Megan Vos 47:55
Like what Burke? I mean, that's sort of why Burke and Christina didn't work, too, right. Like, you know, he's like, eventually you're gonna, like, want what I want. It's like, yeah, no, no.
Jackie Leonard 48:06
And that's what I love about her so much. And I also feel really like, I feel very, I've told you before that I feel very happy with the way that her character was given a send off, she leaves at the end of season 10. And yes, there's a part of me because I think sometimes Christina was represented, or she even said that she was like, I think they call her like a robot or somebody who's like, devoid of feelings. But she's a very passionate character, she cares deeply for her friends, she loves very deeply. And so something that I found to be very, and like, didn't quite satisfy me enough, was that I would have loved to see her find, like passionate, like intimate love, like passionate love, and be accepted for who she was. Yeah. Because we didn't get that. And how beautiful would it have been to show that for somebody who chose a quote unquote, alternative path because that kept being that constant theme with her relationships was these men just could not. They like love to the idea of her or they loved parts of her, but they couldn't really love her wholly. And obviously, because of that, we got to see like, the beautiful friendship between her and Meredith, but I like to advocate for like, our friendships are really beautiful and valuable. And I don't think we you know, we can be happy and whole without like, romantic partnerships, but I also feel like she she is the type of person that wanted that. And so it was kind of a little sad that she didn't get that at the end of her art, but I'm glad that she didn't settle also. Yeah, yeah. And maybe, you know, because Shonda created her it was important to her to show up Her son who had achieved so much, but maybe didn't get everything. Right, it was okay to
Megan Vos 50:06
have a baby like getting the hospital, right. I mean, I sort of know what happens from your past, but like getting the hospital, it's like, that's the, like, that was her ultimate, you know, that was her. Like, you know, so many women say that like, oh, I dream to becoming a mom my whole life and like Christina, like, that's probably sort of the her equivalent dream.
Jackie Leonard 50:27
Yeah, that was her baby. Right? Um, I so so that storyline is just like so compelling to me I could really like, go in depth about it. Later in that season eight, he has a moment where he like, makes it very clear that he hasn't let go, like I said, but as I said, Christina really stays firm on that she does not want to be a mother. And I love that scene that you described where Mara that Meredith has kind of also like, in a way like, well, maybe like, I didn't think I'd be a mom. But now I like now I want to and like maybe we could do it together and like support each other. And she's trying to like kind of like, find a silver lining in the situation. And I love how Christina kind of says like, she accepts like what Meredith wants to do. But she also has like, she says, like, I don't want to be a mother, like, Don't get it twisted. And so it's really interesting to see them both having these parallel storylines and premarital to like transition to her situation. She earlier in the the seasons had lost a pregnancy, and was they were struggling to conceive. And Derek, her husband suggest that they adopt this baby from Malawi. That needs a home. And so that's how Zola comes into the picture. And that's what's going on in these episodes alongside her. And in the midst of this, there is a big scandal that breaks out in the hospital where Meredith has compromised trial, a clinical trial that her husband is is involved in regarding Alzheimer's, which is very loaded because her mom had Alzheimer's. And so now they're doing this clinical trial. So she's so like, seems like such a conflict of interest for her to work at it. But anyway, she compromises it, it becomes this big scandal, she's potentially going to lose her job at the end of season seven. And there's that scene between her and Derek about motherhood. And again, I had you watch that scene and would love to, like hear your response and thoughts on that.
Megan Vos 52:50
Yeah, I mean, Derek says like, Oh, you've worried about being a bad mom, and maybe you're right, and just the double standard. And that is one thing that really stood out to me where, I mean, you think, I think if the situation had been reversed, like you don't ever hear people say to men as sort of a threat, like, you would be such a terrible father, you know, and like dad guilt, that's not a thing, Dad shaming, that's not a thing. And the idea that a professional choice that she ended up making, I mean, to protect the chief, it's not even or to help the Chiefs wife, you know, it's not even like she was doing it for like her own personal family. And I mean, I don't know, I'm not like, I'm not like advocating for you know, tampering with clinical trial. But I'm just the idea that that would translate into you being a bad mom. And the idea that being a bad mom is something that we can hold over each other like that. I mean, it just seemed like he said it so easily you know, and you could tell he meant it to hurt but that that is just a thing that we say that that's a thing that exists is just so problematic in the first place.
Jackie Leonard 54:10
Yeah, it's like the thing we have in our back pocket for any like woman who's even approached like considering mother because of the threat. I actually like wrote down and what I love about that scene, and I like obviously, I'm very much on Meredith Meredith side and the situation is they talked about like he kind of I mean, I have a lot of problems with the Meredith Derek relationship and rewatching it almost like Elliott heighten that for me when I rewatched it or watched it like from start to finish again. I think around the in during the pandemic as well. Was like, why is this like the dreamy relationship that was like marketed to us because he is like constantly talking down to her constantly It has this like air of superiority about how he's like a better person than her. And in this scene, it really kind of like encapsulates that very, very well. Big Red Flag, I feel like, you know, in a more like healthy dynamic, you would want her to be like, red flag, like we're not having kids together. He says, quote, unquote, he says, I don't know how to raise a child with someone who doesn't understand there's a right or wrong in this world. And like her comeback to that whole, like, this is right, and this is wrong, like you should know the difference. Her comeback is like, it's complex is complicated. Like, I like the fact that the person get receiving this, you know, clinical trial was the wife of the Chief of our hospital, who's like a father figure, to me is complicated. Like, I'm not telling you what I did was right, but you need to acknowledge that there is some like, gray in life that like make things less like, right, like, it's not, you know, black and white. And that's my biggest problem with him is he like, sees the world as like good and evil, right and wrong. And he doesn't really like, obviously, he gives a lot of grace to himself in that situation. But when he's looking at other people, he really kind of evaluates in that way. And I feel like that's a constant source of like, conflict for them as a couple.
Megan Vos 56:34
And the irony to have him, I mean, of her being able to notice nuance and complexity, like that is what is going to make her a good mom, because motherhood is all about that parenthood is all about nuance and complexity. Exactly. Right. Your daughter doesn't need really need a bath today, you know, even though you thought she did, because it's not worth the fight. Like maybe she does need a bath, even though she just had one yesterday, you know, where it's like, if you're going to base everything on sort of these black and white ideas that he has, then parenthood is going to be a lot harder for you.
Jackie Leonard 57:10
Yeah, and I think he, we see, I mean, we see that in practice where like, he wants to build her this beautiful home and he has like all these dreams and visions for their life together. And he because they have this huge fight like, basically, like, shuns her, what's the word like basically, like, blocked like, completely, like, ignores her. And so she's given an emergency like temporary custody of the child in that same day. And then she's been like, suspended from her job. And a reminder, when you were talking about like, kind of the complexity and like the things that don't go right, in our like minds about motherhood, she's like, we had, you know, she brings her daughter home to like this empty house. And she's like, talking to you makes this like, kind of dark joke about like, or her daughter's sleeping in a dead kids porta crib. And, you know, she was given all the, like, leftover baby gear from the hospital because they had nothing. And she tells the daughter salsola, we had to, like, wanted to have a lullaby ready for you on your first day. And all these things, and I don't even know a lullaby. And I love that kind of side of Meredith. Especially in like, the early years where she's like, I didn't have a mom who did any of this stuff with me. I don't know how to do this, but, but I'm gonna try. And
Megan Vos 58:36
like that first night, like, you know, like, you hear the baby cry. And like, she says, like, I'll get the diaper, you get the bottle. And like, for a second, you think it's going to be Derek that maybe they reconciled, but like, it's her and Christina getting out of bed paying like, I mean, just the fact like, a Christina is totally showing up for her, you know, even like in her own, like, deep crisis. And that Meredith is like, yeah, she's like, we're making it work. You know, here we are figuring it out together.
Jackie Leonard 59:05
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, too, that something else that felt really true to life was even though they're very supportive of one another later in later seasons, maybe it's in season eight, it might be it might come up as you continue to, to make your way through that season. There's some like, just tension between the two of them because Meredith has chosen to like focus more of her energy on motherhood. And Christina feels a little bit like they're kind of going in different directions. And she at some point, they have like an argument about how Meredith isn't really dedicated to her career in the same way. And Christina still is and there's like tension there between them. And I think Meredith, goes through that experience where she wants to be good had all of it. Yeah. And she can't. And she's feeling a little left out as a result, but we see that in order for Christina to have continued to excel in her career, it's because she very obviously chose a different path. And I found that to be really just honest.
Megan Vos 1:00:23
Yeah, for sure.
Jackie Leonard 1:00:26
Did you have anything else you kind of wanted to note about Meredith, and her kind of path to motherhood? Or, Christina, before we go to Bailey's?
Megan Vos 1:00:38
Um, you know, I feel like there's a lot you could say about like her own sort of the way that motherhood ideas are handed down. Because, you know, we haven't really talked about her relationship with her own mom, but like, maybe we should move on to Bailey just because there'd be so much more to say.
Jackie Leonard 1:00:55
Yeah, the, we do get a little bit of Christina at one point and her her mom is like, so very different from her just very, like, proper, she seems very much like a housewife possibly, but like, affluent and dignified, and Christina is just clearly has like rebelled against that, from her mother. So that was, that was fun to see. And with Meredith, we know that her mom was this world renowned surgeon. She's, you know, kind of like a little bit of nepotism to be like entering this field, because everyone sees her. And it's like, you're Ellis Grey's daughter, and she's like, kind of trying to come out of her mother's shadow professionally, but then she also has just so like very, very deep wounds with her mom, who was just very critical of her. And like we said earlier, just didn't really want to, to have a have children to begin with. She also did not really respect Meredith's father, which also I think she, her mom never really like, let go of like, Meredith coming from this man that she was married to that she didn't ever really respect. And so it's, and that all got put on Meredith. And so we see like the adults version of a child that had to grow up in that situation. And it's been interesting kind of seeing how she sort of can respect her mom. And like, appreciating she learned about her, but then also know very much that she like, does not want to be the way that her mom was with her. So yeah, that's yeah, like you said, very loaded. And a lot we could say. But we did want to spend some time talking about Bailey, who you mentioned earlier, and her storyline, and she is the one who quote unquote, traditionally had like a traditional motherhood experience. In the shoot, she finds out she's pregnant pretty early and into the show. I think it's like the first or second season. And she's married. She has, she has her son. And I got the episodes wrong. So I hope you didn't reference my notes. But it's actually season four, Episode 11 When Bailey's work and her, you know, her life as a mom intersect in the worst way, because she works in the hospital and describe that, you know, that, that plots for us, Megan?
Megan Vos 1:03:30
Yeah, so Bailey is getting pages and texts and like her husband keeps calling and they sort of set it up like her husband is making her feel pretty guilty for leaving, like she leaves and the baby's crying. And she's like, Sorry, I gotta go. And so you've got this setup that this is already an issue with them. And he's paging and paging. And then you come to find out that it's because her son has pulled over a book. Is it a bookcase? A cabinet?
Jackie Leonard 1:04:03
Yeah, it's a bookshelf. Yeah, like a bookcase.
Megan Vos 1:04:07
Large furniture on. And so you see this mean? There's this moment of her realizing that it's actually her son, who is the baby who has been brought in. And then there's this whole scene by the son's bed where the husband is accusing her basically like there and she's retracing her steps. I mean, pretty obsessively of like, I close the baby gate, I, you know, just sort of trying to determine whose fault it was that he had had that accident and this real need to figure out who was responsible between her and her husband?
Jackie Leonard 1:04:53
Yeah, that I think there had been a lot of buildup up to that point like you you mentioned that Uh, their marriages is is, you know, having a lot of problems and there's a lot of resentment around the amount of work she she does. And I feel like that is an overarching thing with theme with her character is just constantly feeling guilty for pursuing her career. And just that alone, it just feels so relatable just in the context of like being a mom, like, it doesn't even matter if it's coming from somebody directly. There's just like this air about, you know, being away from our kids that like you referenced earlier. Like, we don't do the same thing to dads. And I love are the thing that I felt like was so like, like a gut punch, again, similar to like the derrick and Marietta scene was, you know, her husband says, somebody left the baby gate open. And, and she was kind of like, Well, are you suggesting that that was me? And he's like, You were in such a hurry to get to work? And he says, Leave me, like, unhappy with me. And she's he says, Why do you and this was like, so this is again, like a statement that's meant to her. But like, of course, it came down to her mothering. He was like really getting her. He says, Why do you think he went into that room? Like, basically, you're the only one that's in that room. He went looking for his mama, and now he's in the hospital. And I was just like, oh, man, like, that's like the like, that was just like the absolute worst thing. You could say, of course, in that situation. And her responses? Well, like, you know, I guess you picked a bad wife and made an eye and she made a bad mother made you stay at home and raise your son. And she almost killed him Poor you. And I was like, oh, like, like, I was so glad she said that. It's obviously not true. But it was just like, what that's like what you're telling her? That's what you're saying to her? And like, you know, you're like lamenting that you have to be home and raise your kid like, do you that's what you expect of me.
Megan Vos 1:07:19
Right? And I mean, if the situation had been reversed, you figure they must have discussed this arrangement. It's not like, I mean, she clearly knows that she's working. It's not like he wouldn't have realized that he was going to be home sometimes, you know, it's just seems like a totally, I don't know, patronizing. way to approach her and one where you figure like, if the dad were leaving for work, and this happened, you know, you would never say to a dad, like, especially I would think like a male surgeon like how could you be leaving your child all day, you know, just like really exposes some of the expectations of Miranda.
Jackie Leonard 1:08:02
Yeah. And I mean, that's not to say I feel like you know, there there can be points in parenting fingerpointing that goes on between mother and father. And that's not like the thing that I think I didn't that was like the worst of it. It was more the like, there's something deeper here going on. And like, the reason he's looking for you is because you're never home. And it was just like, and like I said, this is something that that Miranda Bailey contends with all the time. And then, you know, later on, she becomes a single mother. And that adds its own like pressures and guilt where she's like, I have to be working. I'm, you know, my son is in daycare, I'm not seeing him. But I and she's, you know, I'm a black woman who wants to move up in the like, the ladder of my career, and I have to do this like, and I love what I'm doing and I shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it more than I already do. And like I said, I just, I always just feel for her in a lot of these like professional situations where she's like having to really make these hard choices. And there's times when I think she steps back intentionally because she knows she has to like focus on her personal life. And yeah, I found a scene right before we recorded from season eight, which you are watching. Motherhood is like heavy and season eight. I wonder like, who the writers were and what was going on at the time, but it's season eight, Episode 20. And in this scene, it's like, like a you said, like a two minute clip. And like, can you like describe the scene and your reactions to it? For people listening? Yeah. Wait, it's the one with the daycare and picking up her son?
Megan Vos 1:09:53
Yeah, yeah. Um
Jackie Leonard 1:09:57
Okay, well just take a nap. Did we know we didn't talk about it on the recording? So, Haley, you can edit this part I don't think we talked about in the recording.
Megan Vos 1:10:06
I thought we did. I thought we started with it because I was talking about Miranda, code switching. I'm sorry, Haley. I thought we started with it because we were talking about you're asking me which character I resonated with the most. And I said Aranda, and I was like, Oh, I'm bringing up this scene.
Jackie Leonard 1:10:22
Okay, maybe you did, actually. I was gonna say, shall we talk about it anyway? Okay, well, we can edit this part out we can. Yeah, cuz I forgot. That's the problem I have. I'm like, I shouldn't record. I shouldn't talk too much about it before I record except I can't remember. So I'll just we'll just do final thoughts about Miranda in just a second. I'll take a pause and then okay. Yeah. So, so like what? So I think the takeaways we've already shared about Miranda, her last name is Bailey. I've called her Bailey and Miranda, for anybody who doesn't know just that to confuse you. Bailey's her last name. Some of the things about, I think Bailey, that really kind of resonates me that we said earlier, it's just that she really does kind of have a lot of storylines that have to do with like, the guilt and the anxiety, like the fears of being a mom. There's some really powerful episodes in later seasons, where she is really afraid for her son because she has a black son in this day and age. And she it's like such a powerful scene where she talks about, like, how he needs to respond to a police officer if he's in a certain situation. And she's just always has this heightened fear and worry about her children, as a mom, and to see situations where more people are putting that on her already. I feel like it really shows like visually, we can like see all the different like piles that we you know, we we pack on to mom's knowing how much we already carry ourselves. And so I think it takes writers who are very intimately familiar with this, to flip like to make real scenes that we can like, identify with like that. And so Shonda Rhimes isn't the only writer on the show. So I can imagine there's other moms that write for this show. But I think they do that really well.
Megan Vos 1:12:25
Yeah, I totally agree.
Jackie Leonard 1:12:30
And I think this theme of like, what's a good mother? What's a bad mother? Like, is recurring? I've noticed and I think they really like to play up this idea of what do we traditionally consider a bad mother? And like, is that actually fair? Is that true? And so I find that really interesting, because I don't think that's been like a thematic question. And on a lot of shows.
Megan Vos 1:12:53
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And sort of thinking about the characters who are not moms and the ways that they are also nurturers. That's just another another element that I think that they do really well in this show. And even thinking about Bailey, like before, she's a mom, when she is such a strict resident, but then, like, something happens, or you know, something will happen, and you'll see just how much he really cares about them, too. And so, there's sort of that aspect, too, I think of, like, I always saw Bailey as the mom.
Jackie Leonard 1:13:26
The nurturer. Yeah. That's so true. And, and the ways that that, that carries that, like, people mother in different ways, you're so right, and, and that she is the hard one, but she's also like, she's also the one that they go to, and that they trust and that they can like, go to for help. And so I feel like that's yeah, and and there are times that her professional approach is criticized in the way that she either over nurtures or under nurtures. And I'm sure, again, that that's loaded because she's a woman. And so there's like this expectation that she, she teach and mentor a certain way and I feel like that, you know, is speaking to motherhood as well. Which I liked that you bring that up. And there's all sorts of characters throughout the series that have different experiences and interactions with motherhood. Like Addison comes to mind. And we, we we're not going to get into it now. But like Izzy, famous like in the series, she get to find out she gave up her daughter for adoption before she went to college, I think and you know, those are some of the core characters from the early seasons that also have their own kind of storylines around motherhood that I think are also pretty interesting to get into. as we wind down the conversation, I told Megan this earlier, I'm going to do a fun little quiz with you and see Which greys character you are we talked earlier about how like which one that we identified with or which one we found more interesting and so it'll be fun to see, based on your answers Megan, which character you are the most like on Grey's Anatomy. Are you ready for a quiz? Okay, so this is a Buzzfeed quiz. Of course, I will link it in the show notes for anybody who wants to also see which character they are. So the first question is Which word best describes you? whiny winner, outspoken. Quiet, shiny, attractive. Strong, sassy intelligence.
Megan Vos 1:15:46
I like it. I do these sometimes. And I tried to like think of which character you know what I'll Oh, right. No, I will go with intelligent
Jackie Leonard 1:15:57
Yeah, the thing that's funny before I get into the second question is I did a Buzzfeed with somebody else as well. And I'm like, I can tell that these are meant to be done in private because it's like, who's gonna answer this but you know, feel as comfortable as you do in the answer. What do you do at a party? drunkenly offend people? Dance a ton. Tequila shots, drinking games. Stay home. Serve snacks. Flirt. Keep out gatecrashers people watch.
Megan Vos 1:16:29
I feel like 25 year olds me first watch the show and have a different answer to this but I love it when people watch as 41 year old pandemic mom. Cancer.
Jackie Leonard 1:16:43
Choose a surgical specialty. All of them at once. Orthopedic general neuro dermatology, trauma, pediatric cardio. I can't decide
Megan Vos 1:17:08
Yeah, I guess I can't decide. I'm sitting here not deciding.
Jackie Leonard 1:17:13
That reminds me there's like a funny episode where they like discovered dermatology and it's like, all peaceful and quiet and they're like, why did we do this? Like we should stay here. So nice to have lotion. All right. Describe your love life. Career comes first. I fall in love all the time. Always unrequited married. I'm in love with my boss. In a relationship. happily single. Everyone loves me. I've dated a lot. Married. I was gonna say okay, just cut to the chase on that one. But let you choose a Disney princess. And there's a bunch of pictures. There's Rapunzel snowwhite mag from Hercules Pocahontas. Tiana Bell. Aurora, Mulan or jasmine. Bell. She was a sport. Rugby, jogging, tennis. I don't have time. Hiking. I'm too sad to exercise. Golf dance classes or wrestling.
Megan Vos 1:18:27
Hiking.
Jackie Leonard 1:18:30
What are you doing this weekend? hitting the gym working baking for my friends spa day. Probably just stay home, drinking away my sorrows catching up on reading outdoors or spending time with my significant other.
Megan Vos 1:18:46
I will say outdoors.
Jackie Leonard 1:18:50
Okay, who are you most similar to be honest, and these are all celebrities. I like make sure I know all of them. Okay, Jennifer Lawrence. Michael Cera. Beyonce, Morgan Freeman. Natalie Portman. Ryan Gosling. Lindsey Lowe hands Robert Downey Jr. and then lo Lupita. I don't know how to say her last name. But she's an actress.
Megan Vos 1:19:25
Okay. I'm Natalie Portman.
Jackie Leonard 1:19:32
What do you hate most ignorance rudeness? unambitious people being broke? boredom, big crowds, liars losing happy people.
Megan Vos 1:19:43
Rudeness oh
Jackie Leonard 1:19:47
my gosh there's many I'm sorry Megan. are so many choose a pokeymon. I don't know any of these. Do you have a pokimane? Identify? Okay, I'm
Megan Vos 1:19:57
gonna say that one here with Where's the magic wand?
Jackie Leonard 1:20:01
The magic. Oh, oh yeah, that was cute. All right, you are most like Miranda Bailey. No one would ever dare cross you. You are not a person to be messed with. Someone call you stubborn but you're just headstrong sure of yourself and always know exactly what's going on. So that was fun. I actually got who did I get when I did it? Oh, I got married. I did. I was kind of like where I don't really know that I want Meredith but brand is pretty cool. All right. Well, thank you for that long buzz, creed, Buzz quiz, quiz. And before we wrap finish up, we now have to decide do we feel like the show is a mom advocate show a guilty pleasure that has some good examples of advocacy for moms and some, you know, more problematic stuff a good balance, or is it a mom guilt inducer?
Megan Vos 1:21:11
I would say the first I would say it's a mom advocate show because I think there as we've talked about so many different representations of motherhood. The idea that choosing not to be a mom is a motherhood decision as well. i There are definitely like some problematic things. But I feel like overall. It's a mom advocate.
Jackie Leonard 1:21:34
Yeah, and I think we're in those first, you know, eight to 10 seasons, they do a really good job of like, showing them like struggling with motherhood and having to deal with motherhood. I feel like in some of the later seasons, it seems very like simplified, where it's like, oh, leave the kid at daycare or like they're never with their kids. And you're like, Oh, well, they're on vacation now, where are their kids? And they just very easily can like kind of leave them with whoever. And that doesn't feel as like intentional as they did in like the earlier seasons. But with I agree with you. I think the other like slightly problematic thing I see is that some of these like beloved male characters, like I think a lot of people really love Derek. And the running joke right now is everyone like, hates Olin and wants him to like be gone. So I don't know if people really loved him in the beginning, but I just feel like there was some like relationships that people really loved. And so to see those characters that people enjoyed being so like, critical of these women who are moms, kind of like leaves, like taste bad taste in my mouth, but I do feel like they have done a good job in those early seasons of showing flawed women becoming mothers and like, what the reality is for people in careers, professional careers, and having like to make a lot of decisions around motherhood. So I agree with you. And of course, because Shonda Rhimes is that the you know, the captain of that ship, it makes me even more competent, saying that. Yeah. So thank you so much, Megan, for this conversation. I feel like I can easily dive in and talk about this show. Because of all the different real, real life storylines they have, and I had a lot of fun focusing on motherhood in this hour with you. Thank you. How can people connect with you after listening to this episode?
Megan Vos 1:23:37
And man, it's Instagram at Meghan vos writes, and I also share a lot of my writing on medium so you can find me there too.
Jackie Leonard 1:23:45
Awesome. Thanks so much, Megan.
Megan Vos 1:23:48
Thanks.