Why The Real Housewives is the Most Feminist Franchise on TV with Diana Levy [Part 2]
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Today’s episode is a continuation of last week’s episode with Diana Levy that’s all about The Real Housewives franchise, so if you haven’t listened to that, be sure to head over and do that now. You can find it in your podcast player or at the link below. Today, Diana is doing more and more to convince me that The Real Housewives might just be the most feminist franchise on television as we continue to breakdown marriage, motherhood, and more within the different series. Enjoy, I know I did!
TOPICS DISCUSSED
The hidden motive of husbands pushing their wives to become cast members on the show
The different storylines and plots used to represent motherhood in Housewives but how they also deserve more space
Which Housewives characters that Jackie and Diana connect with most
Watching the daughters of the housewives grow up in the public eye and learn to be housewives themselves
Fighting back against the idea that people who watch Housewives aren’t intelligent or that the show is low brow
Why we should not feel guilt or shame when we choose to take in lighter fare content
The impact of Andy Cohen being the creator and driving force of The Real Housewives franchise
“Real” vs. “Desperate” Housewives, the connotation of both words and how the franchises are connected
RESOURCES MENTIONED
Celebrity Obsession Linked to Lower Intelligence, Nerds Say | The Cut
How 'The Real Housewives' And Reality TV Saved My Life by Daneielle Belton
Returning to the Workforce as a First-Time Mom with Diana Levy
WRITING PROMPT
What is your guiltiest pleasure? What about it makes you feel guilty and what is it that makes you feel pleasure?
GUEST BIO
DIANA LEVY is a writer, director, and producer, who works in both scripted and unscripted formats in TV as well as copywriting and blogging for brands in the health, wellness, and food space. Diana has written and developed shows for networks like ABC Family, YouTube Red, and Snap; as well as copywriting for brands and agencies like Headspace, Love Corn, The Original Farmers' Market, and The Right Now.Her first short film, C.U. Next Tuesday, was an official selection in six film festivals, including Austin After Dark, as well as the Dark Comedy Film Festival, where she received an award for Best Director.
After spending the last 15 years in Los Angeles, she has relocated back to the New York City area with the hopes of bringing her writing and developing skillset into creating and directing for purpose-driven lifestyle brands, while continuing her pursuit of telling stories with a darkly comedic point of view.
In March 2020, Diana created The Light Post, an online community for expectant parents, where she brought together experts in epidemiology and women’s health as a free, at-home resource to women and families all over the world— including Canada, Uruguay, and the UK. It has grown and transitioned into a weekly newsletter, whose readers include parents, non-parents, Hollywood and D.C moguls, tech gurus, as well as teachers, single parents, and artists. According to one marketing expert, The Light Post has a higher opening email rate than Clinique, which means, though it will not make you feel younger, it will certainly make you feel better.
CONNECT WITH DIANA
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Jackie Leonard 57:57
I think, to speak to like, kind of, I found it interesting that certain characters that have been on the show that had famous spouses, like husbands, it almost feels like they the husbands allow them to get on the show, because they know they're on their way out. And it's like, let me give them something to like, you know, help them out because I'm leaving. Because it happened. It's happened with a few of the happened with Megan it happened with oh my gosh, I think it was a Beverly Hills character. Oh, it was the Hadid. She was like married to David Foster. Oh, yeah. And I think he left shortly after she started on the show. But maybe,
Diana Levy 58:53
no, I mean, the the oh, gee of that is Camille Grammer.
Jackie Leonard 58:57
Oh, right. I think he even said, I think Kelsey Grammer was like, yeah, like, let her do it. Because I was
Diana Levy 59:04
planning on my way out. And that was very
Jackie Leonard 59:08
interesting to speak to like what you said earlier about how like, this becomes like this awakening moment for these people that
Diana Levy 59:14
are willing, sometimes I think husbands agree to it because they're like, Okay, great. This will be your job. I mean this and it'll give you storyline and then we can which is also psychotic.
Jackie Leonard 59:29
So problematic. Yeah, like,
Diana Levy 59:31
you know, let's not just get regular divorced. Let's get divorced on camera. It will be better for you. Better for me like what?
Jackie Leonard 59:40
Let's let people meet me on the show. Because yeah, for anyway. No. Yeah, like, and I wonder about that. Because I remember like with Shannon and her marriage, I was just like, how is this good? Like, do you really want everybody to see this?
Diana Levy 59:59
And And
Jackie Leonard 1:00:01
at the same time, I'm sure it gained her a lot of popularity to see her marriage like unravel. And her trying to keep her marriage going she like, was by kicking and screaming to like, hold on to that marriage. And I mean, I'm glad she's out of it. But I think it wasn't something that she like wanted, even when it was really bad.
Diana Levy 1:00:26
Yeah. But I think, I don't know, she would have stayed real.
Jackie Leonard 1:00:30
Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned that character who does have a husband who, you know, notoriously cheats, and she stands by your man. And it's interesting, because we see like the extremes of this, but like that, that exists in you know, regular America, it's not like an uncommon thing,
Diana Levy 1:00:47
you know, when we don't see, which I would like to see is like, one of them cheating on their husbands.
Jackie Leonard 1:00:54
As that not happened. I think Meredith is the only one that they've alluded to. But that wasn't quite.
Diana Levy 1:01:00
We have a like cheating. Yeah, there's never been like a full. There's like a rumor kind of thing, like in that way that it was for Meredith and even for Jenna Shaw a little bit. But like, there hasn't been a woman who gets caught having an affair. And her husband finds out and they get divorced or whatever. And someone better call someone in Rooney or Orange County if they want a good storyline idea, because that's what I'm talking about.
Jackie Leonard 1:01:34
Well, and you know, I think that to speak to just like this idea of depicting women who are problematic, and especially mothers who are problematic. Yeah. That I mean, that would be that's a that's a big hole in,
Diana Levy 1:01:50
in what
Jackie Leonard 1:01:52
you know, could be portrayed, I think the like Bronwyn character, there was some like, oh, I don't know if she like, obviously, it was like an obvious affair. And like, I feel like at the point that they maybe are seeing other people, it's already like, their relationship is like not actually real. Or it's like, wonky. Yeah. So yeah, that would be I mean, I could see how that would be a huge bomb on any series, if something like that happened, especially if it was like a housewife revealed that another housewife had been having a secret affair. And it actually, yes, a surprise,
Diana Levy 1:02:26
or if like, was one of the husbands in the cast,
Jackie Leonard 1:02:29
like, which also happens,
Diana Levy 1:02:32
which happens in real life. Friends leave with each other's spouses. Like why haven't we seen that yet?
Jackie Leonard 1:02:39
Yeah, they kind of step up. Ah, I said, How many years have they been doing this? And that has not happened? Exactly. Yeah, I think very, very obviously, we're going to do a two parter on this. Because I do. I have a few notes about different like, and maybe we don't have to get into too much about each of these. But because we talk about, like, the emphasis is on motherhood, motherhood, and how it's portrayed. So many of the characters are moms or become moms on the series, you noted a few different, like plot lines on different shows that have focused most on like motherhood in different ways. And so I'm curious just to like, kind of like, or I want to bring up just a few of those. And like, riff on what our thoughts on them? If I haven't watched it, you can kind of take the lead, of course.
Diana Levy 1:03:35
Oh, I'll catch you up. Yes. Yes,
Jackie Leonard 1:03:37
Jenny. And what's interesting is, even though I haven't, and even long before I watched any of Real Housewives, I was aware of certain characters just because I'd see their names everywhere. And I was like, oh, yeah, so it has permeated even for I think people who have
Diana Levy 1:03:54
directly watch it's like how we know things about the Kardashians that we never signed up for. Exactly.
Jackie Leonard 1:04:01
So you mentioned you brought up the character Jenny, who was a new character in the second season and who has been ousted since but she her storyline that I think was an example of like, a very real storyline that was like, whoa. And I think also didn't get a ton of play because of all the other things going on. But her having so many she has had, it was a lot it was like eight to 10 miscarriages or
Diana Levy 1:04:29
something like that, like 10 miscarriages and a stillborn
Jackie Leonard 1:04:33
and a stillborn and I think the thing about that background from her that we hear like this has happened in the past it was an ongoing on the show, but her husband is like pressuring her to have another baby. And she's like, No, I don't want one and we're kind of like okay, like, she has a right to know what when and then she says the reason why and you're like, oh my god, like, of course, and he suggests that They get a sister wife to have a baby and like, isn't complete. Like, he's not joking. Like he's like, it was one of those situations where
Diana Levy 1:05:09
he double downs. Yeah, double downs on it at the reunion. Yeah. He's like, Yeah, you have to understand how hard it is for me. It's basically what he hits responses. And it's I mean, I've never seen something like that, actually.
Jackie Leonard 1:05:26
And he's kind of like, yeah, I acknowledge that it's put could potentially kill my wife if she has another baby. But like, I still want a baby. So what are we going to do? Like, where's the compromise? He's kind of like, where's the compromise in this? And she's like, you're my husband. We will not have another baby.
Diana Levy 1:05:43
The compromises the three children we already have. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 1:05:47
And being happy with that, and not like continuing to bring it up to me. Because yeah, I've made it very clear about where I stand on that. And his his compromises. Like, let's get another woman in here. So she can have our baby.
Diana Levy 1:06:02
So gross. Yeah,
Jackie Leonard 1:06:04
that was I was like, I was sorry, what I was just said that was like a new like, level of, of Husbandry that I had seen that I have not yet. Yeah, so
Diana Levy 1:06:16
I felt like, that season was just so bananas, there's so like, I can't believe how long that season was, because there's so much going on. But I just also feel like, like, that's an example of a storyline on a different franchise, that would have had much more time. And I wish that there was more space for it. Because I think something that I was not as aware of in motherhood, until the last couple of years, while being a mom, and I don't know you, before you have kids, or before you try, you hear stories about that kind of stuff. And it doesn't feel like that sad, and I wouldn't want that to happen to me. But you are disconnected from the possibility that it could. And then once you have a baby, you real and if you have a healthy baby, you realize, or even if you don't have, like, the process of making your baby and birthing your baby brings you so close to the edge of life, and death. And it's like and, and I remember feeling that when I was in labor, and just going for such a long time, and Alice was like, it was just getting hairy there. And I never thought about what hairy like meant until it was happening and how important it all is. And that something like that happens to regular women every day. And women deal with miscarriages and the loss of life so much and don't talk about it. And to see a woman talking about it on television, it's just like, I just wish that there was more time for it. Because there's way more people who can relate to that storyline, then Jen Shaw creating, you know, being a criminal and whatever, given that it's a great storyline, and I never want it to go away and I'm back for more but like, there's other ways that people can relate to these characters that sometimes get glossed over.
Jackie Leonard 1:08:38
Yeah, and I think there was just so many layers to her, like sharing the story of her miscarriages and then she like, went into detail about like, what it was like to give birth to her stillborn child and how her husband was the one who was present for it. Because, you know, she had to be I think she was like, sedated or sedated at that point, when they did it. And, you know, she brings up that she thinks he's traumatized. And that's where like, he's trying to fill a void and the topic of men going to therapy gets brought up, I just felt like there was so many things that I've and in Vietnamese culture, she brings up that it's especially like not, you know, a thing that men do, like, you don't go to therapy. I mean, I mean, it's, it's perfect. I mean, for men in general, it's difficult but it's like there's an added layer.
Diana Levy 1:09:34
And I just
Jackie Leonard 1:09:37
to hear how much she wasn't supported by her husband. And have had to like live through all of that. Like I was just like, it was like a double Yeah, trauma to like hear about. Yeah. So like, yeah, like you said, and it reminds me I mean, I guess in different shows. It's Been a more prominent plotline. But some of the the topics of motherhood have been like not as sensational, but like you said they're things that people relate with more. And so it's just interesting to hear how they could be used. Or they could be more helpful to reach an audience and have more connected, but maybe there's just not a way to like, make that kind of storyline. And
Diana Levy 1:10:27
also like, for the major viewership, it's not as interesting.
Jackie Leonard 1:10:34
Right? Well, right. And that's not their only audience. Yeah. I, I remember, I remembered and I didn't watch this season, or the seasons that this had to do with but I remember hearing about it. I think it was on the OSI that there was like a surrogacy like, drama. Maybe it was
Diana Levy 1:10:53
interesting. There might have been Beverly Hills, I might be wrong. There's some years that I've missed on OC, but there was a little bit of a surrogacy drama on Beverly Hills with Adrienne.
Jackie Leonard 1:11:02
Yeah, where it was like they had their kid by surrogate, she didn't actually give birth to her child. And there was like, it was kind of like used as like a, you know, a rumor or something that they got, like a secret against her. Yeah. And I, I just even the fact that that was a storyline is really interesting, because I think that it kind of brings to the surface, like some of the guilt or the shame that women feel that might have to go that route or choose to go that route. And I think even when they're used in kind of this sort of dramatic or catty way, it's, it's good to have them be discussion points and see how they shake out and see how you respond to them. Yeah, yeah.
Diana Levy 1:11:43
Well, and I also like, what's was fucked up about that? Excuse me?
Jackie Leonard 1:11:48
First of all, don't apologize. I think this is a it's not a parenting podcast. It's not. It's a podcast for moms, who are we're real people.
Diana Levy 1:11:59
And we're talking about today, and we're talking about housewives. So yeah. What I thought was fucked up about that was, um, it was using private information. In the same way that the Candice in the with the body shaming stuff, it's like, I thought that the unit, like, I thought that women, no matter where you stand with each other, that there's a universal truth and compassion, that it doesn't matter how you get your baby, if you want a baby, get it any way you can. And people will do whatever they can to have their baby. And so like, maybe, to me, that's the universal rule on the show that not like, we don't talk about kids it's like, and the process to which we choose, or are forced or don't have a choice to have one. And, you know, I think the implication on that one was that like, Adrienne, could have, but she like, didn't want to actually get like the suggestion of it was that she didn't. She was like to, in her own appearance that she didn't want to actually be pregnant and compromised her body.
Jackie Leonard 1:13:21
Yeah. Which as people who have been pregnant, it's like, well, if somebody chose to do that, like, that's, I mean, your knowledge how, you know, what were, you know, giving birth brought you to, like, if somebody is like, you know, I don't think that's for me, like, are they not a mom anyway? Like, right, you know, would you go there if somebody's adopted? No. So why is it any different? It's?
Diana Levy 1:13:42
Well, and I think the other thing that was interesting about that one, and I might be wrong, maybe somebody will message and say, correct me, but I also think that there was something about the kids not knowing that they were, that there was a surrogate, which that part to me, should it be true? Is in is weird, like, but also not Brandi? Glanville is plays to, like,
Jackie Leonard 1:14:11
bring, right like whose place is it? So? Yeah, why don't you want to if if they don't know, and are you, you are okay with having them find out about it through this plot on a reality TV show? Yeah. But, but again, it's like those are, I think they do still reflect like, some of the judgments that people make about people who choose to have their families and, quote unquote, alternative ways. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
Diana Levy 1:14:45
everyone's entitled to their own experience and that and I thought that like, reality television might have a bar in that space, but I guess it doesn't. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 1:14:59
I've read somewhere. I think it probably, it's probably true of any character, like any show that you watch that is telling a story. But like with reality TV, a lot of times the characters that you kind of latch on to or the most critical are of it's like a projection. Like you're kind of like
Diana Levy 1:15:17
I mean, I'm terrified to some extent that there's parts of me that are likely to Barlow even though I know that, but like, I've been joking to certain people, there's they're like, which cast member would you be on? SLC? Barlow, but I think it's just because I like to produce. But I would never in a million years do those horrible things. But there's something heightened about her that I think she's just a great housewife. But um, yeah, I don't know. Is there one that you like? You said, you thought you were a Meredith but
Jackie Leonard 1:15:54
oh, no, I mean, she was just somebody that like, I think sometimes when I go into watching, I like, just, it's my impulse to like, want to connect to one. And then when I as I continue to watch the housewives, especially I'm just like, I can't like watch one that I think is quote, unquote, likable. Like, I'm just like, why am I looking for that? Because it's always gonna, like, let me down or something.
Diana Levy 1:16:15
Yeah. And that's kind of how I feel about the Lisa Barlow thing. And like, why I've been sort of like saying that that because like, the whole point of this is like, These people aren't supposed to be likable. So if I'm, like, going to think about the most unlikable, I don't know, like, allow me to project myself into the most unlikable people and really face myself.
Jackie Leonard 1:16:37
Because I think the person that I the two people that I was the most interested in watching on Salt Lake, were Jen and Mary. And Meredith was one that was like, Oh, I feel for her or like, she seems like you know, like, a more like, down to earth person. And I'm like, Yeah, might even like look like is that even? I know, Meredith to me is frankly, boring. And yeah. And then I was like, kind of like, well, actually, I'm, like, more drawn to watching the scenes with Jen, Shawn Mary, because they're just like, really, like, just so like, they're they double down, you know? And, and in the second season, I felt like Lisa, I was intrigued by just her. Just sorcery. And, like her lack of awareness, self awareness. I was just like, wow. So, so that's like, I guess I've noticed that even on I'm watching the currency, I took a few years off on OC. I really enjoyed Kelly Dodd. Yeah. And then she got to a point where I was like, I can do more, but I loved I love the computational ones. I love the ones that don't feel intimidated or fazed by some of the like, rules or like the, the hierarchies and so those are the ones that I get, like, drawn into Teresa Judaize. Well, and I have not watched that series, but I guess she would be one of them. Oh, yeah. In current the current season of the housewives in Orange County, I, I was kind of turned off by Shannon for a while I feel like I enjoy her again. And I also enjoy Noella and Heather's dynamic, I really like no while because even though I typically like the characters that are more kind of like, punchy, she's like a mela like you know, you talked about like the stoners, right? It's like she's very mellow. And I think that like rattles some of the other characters so much because she can say something with one line and be smiling. And it's like so like it's it's like a comeback. And the other ones have to like yell and like, be outrageous to like level up to that and so it's just really fascinating. And all the other characters that are like so scared of Heather she's the one that thankfully isn't and so I find that to be very like refreshing
Diana Levy 1:19:07
Noela brings new meaning to mellow dramatic because it her energy to your point it elicits an opposite energy from the other people. But like she doing she's saying and doing crazy shit she doesn't have to be the loudest person in the room doing it I love her I think she's afraid housewife.
Jackie Leonard 1:19:34
I think so too. And they that's like an example I think of who they're like trying to make the villain and it's like very obviously she's spilling a lot of the energy on the show and like our end to end up and I think Shannon to I ended up like rooting for her. Like I've looked on Twitter and it's like people love Shannon No, no Ella and like the people who think they're the the righteous ones on this show or not. Yeah, at least that's not the reaction that people are getting. are sure to the character. So I find that really interesting that dynamic in this season. Okay, let's see it is. Do you want to talk a little bit about Theresa since you brought her up and her like whole husband going to jail and she's got a daughter's, I think,
Diana Levy 1:20:23
well, so excuse me. The other. Some other interesting elements, I think about motherhood and parenthood that are happening. On other franchises, specifically, what I think is happening in New Jersey right now. There is a new generation of women coming up in the show, which is the daughters of Teresa, and Melissa, they have been on the show forever, and the girls are now like Gs 21. She is at she must be getting a paycheck. She appears at events, she has a confessional. And it is insane. Watching these young girls, these young women grow up and learn how to be housewives and like, show up and execute like GIA brings like storylines. She brings storyline. She's competent. She's confrontational. She's like, already a housewife. And she's 21. And so that's interesting to see. I mean, I mean, I've never seen them before. It's new this season, that's happening as well. But also like those show. I mean, that's a true crime. That was like the OG True Crime Story of the franchise. And Teresa is one of those specific kinds of people who has no awareness of how she moves in the world has no idea how stupid she is. Just lives her life. Doesn't question anything, obviously, and ended up in jail. And she and her husband had to do it at different times, the kids were all in their house. Her husband now has been extradited to Italy and is not ever able to come back to the States. It all played out on the show. And you've watched these girls grow up and deal with how and deal with this. And they've actually I think all things considered turned out to be like, pretty good. Kids, it seems which is crazy. But you know, like what life do you create? When all that happens? Like what life can they live other than a life that's on a reality television show?
Jackie Leonard 1:23:04
Yeah, it i The only other comparison from what I've watched his Vicki's daughter who is most normal person, and it's very, like, her mom is just outrageous. And then she is just like, a very kind of voice of reason. It seemed that sounds Yes, yeah. Okay, so
Diana Levy 1:23:22
that feels like the voice of reason. That's a good comparison actually. Considering you have not wasted as much time as I have watching Real Housewives of New Jersey. But um, yeah, she is very much this voice of reason kind of person and the straight man in that house. And it's also interesting watching them, like, except her new life and then also grieve their dad and talk about that and like, from the loss of him as a presence in their life and stuff. So that even though I find there's the storyline unrelatable like I don't imagine my husband going to jail anytime soon or being extradited or me going to jail. But so yeah, that was that's definitely a storyline. I don't really I've never seen on television before. And these girls now are old enough to have their own voice net, which is also just interesting to watch.
Jackie Leonard 1:24:20
Yeah, they'd like outpace the Kardashians. Yeah. Because of just the ages that the children are G is the new Kim. Maybe
Diana Levy 1:24:31
she asked her hit song on Tik Tok
Jackie Leonard 1:24:33
was so I don't was GIA the one that when she was a lot little younger did like some song and it was like your Joe really bad? Because I remember my sisters like showing me a clip of it. And I was like, why are they doing this poor child? I remember being
Diana Levy 1:24:49
like, that was one of the most cringe worthy things I've seen on television period. And then for to come back as like a tick tock thing last summer was As I mean, the Internet can be just so priceless sometimes. Like it was almost eight or 10 years later that this song be wild.
Jackie Leonard 1:25:14
Well, and it probably has worked for her advantage. But she was on the show. Yeah.
Diana Levy 1:25:20
She's like got with Teresa's got her sweatshirts. She's doing her content. She's got her followers. We're doing balloons. We got a whole thing. Wow. Got a new line or something because of it.
Jackie Leonard 1:25:32
Well, and that's a new other thing on top of the entrepreneurial ship of these housewives and moms. We're seeing now that they I mean, maybe it's been ongoing for longer than I realized, but like the business ventures of their children. Lisa Barlow's kids have some product line. Have you tried it?
Diana Levy 1:25:54
No, but that's a great name for a product.
Jackie Leonard 1:25:57
What was it fresh wool is fresh Wolf.
Diana Levy 1:26:00
Yeah. Like she knows how to name it. Fresh Wolf. And then what's another good kids? Oh, Brooks marks, right. There you go tracksuits with that smart marks tape on it.
Jackie Leonard 1:26:15
And then Heather DuBose daughter is a best selling author, or at least, I'm pretty sure it was a vessel. Right, right. Right. A teenager who wrote a book, I think, I think Shannon's daughter wrote a book, some other child wrote a book about divorce, I think maybe it was, I don't know if it ever came out. I remember that being a storyline somewhere. So like, these children are also being like, given these. I don't know. They're they catch the spark or the bug and go to or their parents, you know, and their parents
Diana Levy 1:26:49
like here, I have this idea. And then it's like money laundering. Through you put your name on it and call it mine.
Jackie Leonard 1:26:58
Yeah. Speaking of a crime, I've heard that Whitney's husband has some like things about him in his business that are not the most, that have been like in you know, have had legal ramifications. And that's why she knew she talks about in the last season. You know, investing all this money, and so rebranding her business, and I was like, Oh, they're putting all of their funding finances into a new business. Interesting. Yeah, you don't say maybe she's projecting? She's like I see it because yes, we are doing the same thing.
Diana Levy 1:27:31
She's reading it like how to not get caught.
Jackie Leonard 1:27:36
Well, and you brought up you brought up Bethany's storyline as a single mom, and I don't remember I don't know again, I don't know that series, but I have watched episodes of Shark Tank where she's on it as a you know, somebody who invest in other companies and she has, is it just an alcohol lot like a wine like skinny girl
Diana Levy 1:27:59
has expanded beyond? We've got jeans we've got meat we've got I'm sure there's water like skinning. And yeah, and skinny girl was also bought by I forget, which like huge liquor company, like hundreds of millions of dollars
Jackie Leonard 1:28:19
that she bought before the show, or was she that she produced that that's something okay.
Diana Levy 1:28:23
In the first season of the show. She is in like, not at all she's in like some soup supermarket like I don't I think in Jersey, like with a little taster stand being like and their cameras on her and she's like, you want to try my product you want to try my product. And so the show very much like she's the OG as Michael Rapaport calls her. She's the Michael Jordan of housewives. Like she did it. She did the entrepreneurial thing. First. She did it best. She made the most money. She did it. And everybody after is just trying to recreate what Bethany did. But she also was the first house what one of the first housewives that wasn't actually married while on the show. She fell in love with somebody while on the show. And they were married for a very short period of time. But in the time that her product exploded, and they had a horrible, very public divorce.
Jackie Leonard 1:29:41
And she huh, and they had a child together.
Diana Levy 1:29:47
But just think Bethany's like, you can't have a conversation about housewives and not talk about Bethany. Because she like, had nothing made something of herself. was a housewife fit They'll do being like, you know, perceived as a failure because she got divorced and had to like, fight tooth and nail to keep all of her money that she wouldn't have necessarily like, the guy she married would have been a catch. If she wasn't Bethenny Frankel. To the housewives world like he was in real estate and like had she had, that's Kyle Richards like Kyle Richards is like, I guess like, see List. Hollywood royalty, but her husband's in real estate and makes a lot of money and like, that could have been Bethany, but she she was the one with the she was the one with the big idea. Yeah, um, I think it's cool to see that too. And to Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 1:30:51
I, I was reminded of like you talking about, or talking about the fact that like, the shows, are seen
Diana Levy 1:31:00
as
Jackie Leonard 1:31:03
just lower, like lower tier or like people who watch these are not intelligent. And you know, your pushback to that, and hearing about all these people who've been on the show, these women who've been on the show who've gone on to make something of themselves to all different kinds of degrees beyond just being a popular character. I mean,
1:31:28
it's,
Jackie Leonard 1:31:28
it's interesting that that's not talked about talked about, like, I didn't I mean, I, I wouldn't have known about Bethenny being as successful as she was, unless, if I had not seen that episode that she was on on Shark Tank, and I'm like, wasn't she a real housewife? Like, why she, you know, you know, venture capitalists, you know, like doing, like funding these. These businesses, what does she do? And I kind of like, read up on her, and I was like, Oh, wow, like, we're not like talking about that enough, because of like the subject matter. But, I mean, I don't know if you would call it acting, I don't know if you would call it whatever these these women do when they come on the show. But there's a talent that's not being like, valued. That goes into like, I don't know how I would appear on screen in this setting. And I don't know how much is heavily, you know, orchestrated by production, but they have to be able to turn it on in a way that most people don't to do what they do.
Diana Levy 1:32:35
Oh, yeah. That's like, that's a comfort of the camera that you either have or you don't have, and I don't think you can,
Jackie Leonard 1:32:43
as somebody who gives an innate or do you think you would call it you call it a talent?
Diana Levy 1:32:48
I'm sure that they would say that it's a learning curve. And, and I 100% believe that, but I also believe that the ability to like move through how you're perceived on camera, or move with ease with a camera around you is like an innate gift, or like a shamelessness. Whichever one you way you want to categorize it. But like I used to be an actor, when I was younger and stuff, and the theater was always easy and fun for me. But the moment I was in front of a camera I like could not deal with the camera on my face. So like you can I think some people just love a camera on their face. Yeah, and like shine and turn on when that happens. Yeah, I think they're all slightly characterized versions of themselves, too. You can watch them grow and like become camera aware. I love like a second season housewife who comes with like, a new wardrobe with like, makeup, all of that?
Jackie Leonard 1:34:00
Yeah. Well, I guess what I wanted to kind of touch on is that we don't see the value or we don't see the skill that goes into it. And like you said, there's like some people that are more comfortable than others. And naturally, the person that's drawn to go on reality TV is going to be the person that probably shines in those situations. But you know, there's I've seen plenty of shows or movies where like, you can see a very obviously bad actor, just not be able to do it. And some of them you know, get to be pretty famous. So by comparison, just seeing some of these these women on the show, just really just like, like you said, the one liners and the things that they're able to deliver whether or not they have writers to help them out with it or not, I don't know. But
Diana Levy 1:34:51
you can tell the ones who do and the ones who don't. Okay, like I I think Kyle Richards has people writing stuff for her. Um, I think a lot of the Beverly Hills girls have people writing stuff for them. That seems no one is writing shit for anyone on Atlanta. They are all that funny. Right? Okay. Yeah, like Porsche. I know. It's just not on it gonna be on it anymore. But like, Porsche is also an all time housewife and one of the funniest has some of the funniest best one liners I have ever heard. Same with Karen huger. She's Potomac. But like, Yeah, I think I think some New Jersey girls have people write stuff for them, like Melissa Gorga. Teresa. I don't think Margaret has stuff written for her. But yeah, I think like, yeah, some do, and some don't.
Jackie Leonard 1:35:52
Yeah. Well, that's for people listening, that might be interesting to hear from somebody who would know, I think, at least better than I, but I do think that that skill is not valued in the same way that we talked about, like good acting, and I, the, the commitment that some of these these women have, like you said, either whether they're, it's because they're just so not like, they don't censor themselves, or they're just not like, they don't have a filter what it is that makes them this way, but they are able to create entertainment, and to consider it like not equal to some of the other stuff that we partake in. I think little it speaks, it feels very gendered. You know, like this idea of I was thinking about the idea of like, a guilty pleasure even is feels gendered to me, because I just don't I've never heard of like, a, you know, sis hetero male, saying that they have a guilty pleasure.
Diana Levy 1:37:00
Whoa, no, they just have pleasure. Pleasure,
Jackie Leonard 1:37:03
right. And they or they have, you know, hobbies or things they enjoy. It's not like, Oh, it's a guilty pleasure. And, like, you know,
Diana Levy 1:37:09
my husband doesn't call going through Twitter all day. It pleasure.
Jackie Leonard 1:37:14
Exactly. But you know, reading a gossip magazine, oh, that's my guilty pleasure. Right? Yeah. So these shows, like, inherently, I feel like fall just like are considered this, like, guilty pleasure for most people where it's like, I'm not gonna, like, be out like public about how much I love this show. Because people are gonna think, I don't know, I'm, like, less intelligent, or that I'm not, you know, I don't know, I think it depends on who you surround yourself with. But I do feel like there is an impression that it's not a good thing to watch.
Diana Levy 1:37:49
100% always my family. Like, I mean, my husband can't stand that I watch it. And I really wish like, I really wish he could love it with me. Or whatever really good time. But maybe I'm wrong. But that's part of why I actually try to be like, as out of the closet on my housewives as possible. Um, because I feel like I am. Like, I've worked in TV and in media and stuff. And I have worked on shows. And I. And there is like this high, low brow thing about it. But that's why I always say, I lead with the fact that I watch this kind of stuff all the time. And frankly, as a TV writer, somebody who's like, dealing with that stuff all the time. It's not actually that enjoyable for me to watch scripted television, because I'm so aware of like, who wrote it, who directed it what they did here, but like, it's not checking out. Whereas housewives is definitely checking out. And I don't feel guilty about that. Because what some people are checking out for people can be watching TV, but most of those shows that, like I said, it doesn't feel relaxing. To me, it feels like work. Unscripted, really feels like a true disconnect. And so, and that's why I try, like, I'm fine with that. I'm not embarrassed about it. And I also think that I have produced, I would say that one of the I think I'm pretty smart. So to think like, I'm giving housewives a good name by saying like, I watch it all the time. I could write a dissertation on it. It's like the most feminist franchise of television and I think that anyone who can really truly appreciate all of the intricacies of so many levels of this franchise As a deep thinker, a feminist deep thinker.
Jackie Leonard 1:40:05
Well, and that's honestly what part of this this season is about is like being able to, like, lean into the fact that like, I enjoy entertainments, and I enjoy, like, watching shows, and sometimes react like some reality shows. And in the past, I have felt guilty for that, or like it made it, maybe it's because I did a lot of my writing in academia, but it's like, there's this, like, this notion that I should, why am I wasting my time doing that when it could be reading? And I'm like, it's, it's, why does have to be one or the other to do it? Why does it have to be one or the other? And why is one considered more? You know, like, the highest high level versus another I, I see writing, and I see storytelling and all of these. So what's the difference? Yeah, but for some, you know, but but a culturally like, that's what we've kind of been told. So I just, I feel like talking about these topics, talking about these shows, talking about different movies. It's the same kind of like, analysis that I was doing with these like novels that I had to read, but I'm way more invested. I feel way more like, excited to talk about them. And it's but it's the same thing. Yeah. So. So I loved that. That was another thing that I was just like, oh, I have to have that now. And because I know that you will, you know, advocate for that so much talk about it seriously, right. And I know it was at the New Year, I'll probably link this in the show notes. There was an article that I read in it, it touched on like celebrity, like, like, I think celebrity gossip, but it was kind of in the line of like celebrity gossip and entertainment and just being like more in pop culture versus those who are not. And it was kind of it's suggested, there was a study that was done that that said that people who engage in this are of lower intelligence than those who are not. And I read more about the, like the actual study, and of course, it was like, it was tweaked to make a headline. Yeah, of course, it wasn't it was more like people that are fanatics who, you know, don't understand the difference between reality and, and like what you see on a magazine, those are the people that are found to be of lower intelligence, but they the headline in the way that it was written was like people who watch reality TV, or people who know about celebrity gossip, are lower intelligence. And that was what I saw circulating a lot. And I was just like, really, like, really? Like, I mean, we have degrees in like anthropology and sociology,
Diana Levy 1:42:42
and wrote that article, and what publication has come like was, and
Jackie Leonard 1:42:47
I'm pretty sure it was a man. Right? And, you know, yeah, and what publication I, like I said, I'm gonna go back to like, what I think was the original line and like, what, and link it because it's really interesting just to read the way it's written. But
Diana Levy 1:43:01
you know, what people don't do a study of or that I haven't heard a study of, is how much less intelligent the population of people who spend their entire weekend watching football
Diana Levy 1:43:19
like, Oh, you're watching people ram into each other game after game after game drinking beers and eating? Like, whatever food you are, and like not exercising, and like, on Saturdays college and Sundays pro like, okay.
Jackie Leonard 1:43:40
Yeah, and you're a cool girl, if you do
Diana Levy 1:43:42
if you're doing it too, right. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 1:43:45
But if I choose to watch Real Housewives marathon while you know, my, you know, my husband doesn't watch any sports. But while my husband watches football, I am you know, some you're less intelligent. Yeah. Right. Because there's so many like plays and things to remember while you're watching sports, right? Yeah, that that whole, like, disconnect is just like, it sends me in a rage. And I, again, I consider myself a smart, smart person. I don't think you have to, like, analyze some of these things to the degree that I do to still fall into this category that it has no, but like, I think sometimes people that are more self aware about these things are actually more intelligent. Because they're more there's more tapped into the world. In a way Yeah, I think some people like to say is beneath them or not, not something that they pay attention to. But you know, somebody like you who has worked in Entertainment has worked in you know, like studios and writing and stuff like that. What the material that is used for entertainment is reflective of where we are in society. And it all So informs what we do as society so whether or not you want to admit that it affects you, it still does. It's like that right? That famous quote in The Devil Wears Prada where, you know, Meryl Streep is basically like, or Anne Hathaway is kind of like, I don't care enough about fashion. It's not, you know, important to me. And she's kind of like, I'm, you know, I want to be a serious writer. And, you know,
Diana Levy 1:45:20
it's the best monologue like, it's one of the best monologues ever.
Jackie Leonard 1:45:25
I love it. Yeah, for so many. I can use it in so many different situations. But
Diana Levy 1:45:29
yeah, I don't know, I want to give you the opportunity to finish it. But it's the comparison of the her picking the color of sweater, right? Yeah, yes.
Jackie Leonard 1:45:37
And it speaks to this. So well as like whether or not you want to admit that you're influenced by it you are. So I feel like the people that are more in it and are aware, like, they have a sense of perceptiveness and self like awareness of their worlds that maybe people that think they're too good for it. Don't people that tell me like, I don't know who the Kardashians are, I'm like, There's something wrong. Is that Is that true? Like, do you really know, you're lying? Or are you like, so in a bubble that's problematic? And why
Diana Levy 1:46:12
are you so insecure about your intelligence, that you don't want to admit that you are something other? Or like that there's something that you do other than talk about your own intelligence? Um I yeah, I totally, I agree, I just find when, like, the pride that people have of like, not having a TV in their house or something. It's just like, Okay. Like, you're still watching shows on your phone. Right? Well,
Jackie Leonard 1:46:51
you know, I don't mean to call it my husband, but my husband is somebody like I always like to, I like to share that. I was an IDS kid, I felt like, you know, we had a TV in every home and I, I watched a ton of TV, and I'm kind of grateful for it, because I learned a lot of things that I probably wouldn't have learned. I didn't have a TV. My husband did not watch TV and was never really interested in it. He was like, an avid reader. And, and yet, like you said, I had a lot of times, we'll make little comments about me watching things. And I'd be like, Oh, what are you doing on your phone? Watching videos reading message for it's like very much. To his credit, I feel like he is tapped into and in by reading like articles and stuff knows, and admits that he knows about things that I think some other people that don't watch as much would not admit to so I'll give them credit in that way.
Diana Levy 1:47:49
Yeah. I mean, I've my sisters, I have a sister who's married to a professor and his professor Cambridge. And you he's not a professor of modern times. And he, like the pride sometimes of being stuck in the past is like, like, okay, but like, humans evolve, storytelling evolves, how we tell stories evolves, like Picasso's self portraits are just really the first selfies. Like, it's art, its expression, self expression. And I don't know I, I feel like I've, I've been, I'm certainly snobby about certain television shows and stuff. And but I'm, you know, we're all always allowed to have your own opinion. But like, I just don't think that there should be like, there shouldn't be much judgment to have people want to entertain them. Like, what about all the football, but no one is questioning that Nope. Right. I
Jackie Leonard 1:49:02
think we're criticized I don't think we're criticizing what people choose to do. The people that like choose to watch sports, the people who choose not to have TVs and all that it's more than the, the way we choose to be entertained, is often this the subject of a lot of criticism. Yeah. And we see other things that we're like, is it really that different? Or are you being you know, judgmental? When I could kind of criticize what you do just right back, but you don't? Yeah, you know,
Diana Levy 1:49:36
well, and a little bit to play a little devil's advocate to that to the conversation and at least my point of view on it like when when Chernobyl was on fire a couple of weeks ago during this is less evergreen content. But when Russia was invading Ukraine, are they still our
Jackie Leonard 1:49:59
venue? was
Diana Levy 1:50:02
there was like, at like, 11 o'clock at night, I was up and I was on, like, I come home or something and I was eating a cookie. And I see that like Chernobyl like, or there was some new nuclear power plant it might not have been noble that was on fire. And on Twitter, it was trending that it would if it blew up, it would be 10 times worse than Chernobyl, basically like fry half of the planet. And reading it, it's not funny, but it is I'm reading in the notes like, huh, like, whoa, that's like a lot for me to be reading on Twitter, right. And then I saw something right under it. That was like Kim Kardashian, Pete Davidson, I was like, Okay, I started reading that. This woman was like, if the half Earth gets nuked in the last 12 hours in the next 12 hours, the only way it can handle what's coming at me is like, I gotta take a break and just like see what's going on.
Jackie Leonard 1:51:15
You know, I think that the speak to you, there's something to be said about? Well, there is some sort of like, I mean, I could not wrap my mind around problematic, but like, you know, it's like tiered, right? Like, they're like right next to each other. I'd like the level of interest. That that's maybe something we could work on. But it also speaks to like, we kind of need a break sometimes. Yeah. Like the people that I know that, you know, are into the high art and the high, you know, highbrow stuff that only watch certain films. I just wonder like, where do you have that release? Like, where do you have that ability to just the thing that I love about my husband is even though he's more serious, and all that stuff, he likes to you know, he loves Arnold Schwarzenegger movies that are just like notoriously bad. And he loves like these, like really notoriously bad movies. And I'm like, yeah, there's the there's the breath of fresh air. Yeah, the music you listen to is sometimes like the breath of fresh air. Like we need something to like, give that release or that escape? Yeah. I wonder about people that don't I'm like, Well, where is where is it that I'm not saying you know it just because I satisfy just need it. Maybe I I read I read the article. I don't know if you've heard. I mean, I'm sure you've maybe seen it the one that like the a new UN report came out. I think it was the UN about basically like we have their ever closing window on like climate change before. Yeah, catastrophic. And I'm reversible. And it has not made the same level of headlines, as you know, insert whatever recent celebrity kind of thing.
Diana Levy 1:52:57
And so there's actually, but I could go on a whole thing about this, too. There's a theory that I forget which book I read it in. It's not drawdown. But like, it's too existential, for people to wrap their mind around and do like an actually, that's what the challenge is, it's not, you can't get mad at the human race for not being able to jumpstart and it's too big. And so like the, what has to the needs to be accomplished is like figuring out how to make it less existential for people.
Jackie Leonard 1:53:47
Yeah, like, make it more specific more and make it one. You know, that's the thing I always like to say about storytelling. And maybe, I mean, you could speak to this, and your experience as a writer, but it's like the specificity the most specific stories are the ones that end up touching the most people because we can, we can really like conceptualize it. Yeah, my son is really into space right now. And he wants to read these like space books, and they talk about all the different solar systems out there, and I just get really overwhelmed. Yeah, like, I can't wrap my head around the fact that it takes Pluto 200 something years to go around the sun or whatever it is. It's like, too much and so much. Yeah, so in that same way, these kind of headlines. I like that I like that kind of grace that we should offer ourselves, we feel guilty that we can't, you know, be more we're not more interested or we can't tap in more and right focus on these topics. I think there's a reason psychologically that we just like can't,
Diana Levy 1:54:44
and it's Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not that's not going to solve the problem. But
Jackie Leonard 1:54:48
now, but you know, I think taking the guilt or the shame off of our, you know, for one thing could be a small start. Yeah. I'll step in the right direction. Well, I also want a reference because I did send to you. And I think you spoke to this, the idea that you go to these reality shows as a way to escape because other entertainment is like, not enjoyable because of your profession. And I, I sent you a video from a Huff Post editor in chief Daniels, who talked about how reality TV is like a self care for her. Because you know, she works in journalism, and the subject matter that they do is so heavy that she says I quoted Real Housewives specifically unintentionally saved her life because it became the thing that I think she said in like, 2016, during like the election, and a lot of the the unrest and the racial and police shootings and all those things that were happening all around the same time was just like so much. And she found real housewives and just she said, I fell asleep, two women screaming at each other and throwing away at each other. And it was bliss. And I know
Diana Levy 1:56:09
I related so much to that video. Because like, I do fall asleep to it too. And, yeah, like, I just loved that you pulled to that video, because it was exactly how I feel. Like I'm not in journalism. I'm not doing anything that grant in that way. But like just it's an insurer, anyone who works on those shows? No, I mean, I was gonna say hates it, but probably not. But they know all the real stuff and the not real stuff. And then maybe the what they love to come home to his watch, like, lots of episodes of Game of Thrones. And that's how they check out. But I do think that, like Casey Wilson, I mean, she has one of the biggest podcasts with Daniel Schneider that talks about housewives, I highly, highly recommend it. It's Casey Wilson, Daniel Schneider. It's called bitch sesh. And Casey talks very openly. And she talks about this in her book, which I would also recommend the wreckage of My presence, just like it's a major motherhood book. But she talks about when her mom died, that the Real Housewives like saved her and pulled her out of her grief. And I think she talks about, like watching a lot of like, kind of, like women, her mom's age going through things. There's a way for her to connect, even though she couldn't, and also, like, laugh about all of it, and just check out for a minute. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Jackie Leonard 1:57:54
Yeah. And I think, you know, you said, you know, I don't work the kind of job or I don't feel the same subject matter, as, you know, this editor in chief, but, you know, the past few years have been pretty heavy for everybody. And yeah, if you're a mom or a new mom, or you know, feeling disconnected from you know, a lot that's going on these kind of, I mean, it's it's kind of poetic that reality TV is the way to escape reality in some way. Right. But that's what I like to call it unscripted. Unscripted. Yes, unscripted. TV, and yeah, and what do you think about just the word real real in Real Housewives? It it's interesting.
Diana Levy 1:58:38
I mean, I think that I mean, I like it better than desperate.
Jackie Leonard 1:58:42
Right? Which is a good segue because we'll get into that in just a minute. Right? Um, yeah, I thought about that when we were about to record because I was like Real Housewives like what is a housewife? A housewife is is a housewife as the at home like a housewife doesn't work because a lot of these women do and so I was like wondering when a lot of them are still not even married. Right and yes, what happens if they're not married? And you know I was just like I was you know, like spiraling into like why why this title but it Yeah, I mean, obviously it just sticks in it doesn't necessarily apply but now housewife is like a new title that I think means something differently after it was started right? Yeah, for sure. Cool. Before I get into the The Desperate Housewives connection to Real Housewives with you what are your thoughts on Andy Cohen being the creator and the you know, executive producer of this series I've on past episodes, I like to I know you said it's hard for you and scripted television and probably film to kind of get into the story because you know about who makes these but I've been liking to point out who is writing and who's creating a lot of this stuff because I think it's good to know when we're like, you know, diving and so, so much until a lot of this stuff. So I'm curious just your thoughts on Andy Cohen as, as the creator of this series franchise.
Diana Levy 2:00:14
Well, Andy Cohen is my, like dream girl. She like I, I want to be Andy Cohen, like in the next life or just be like, Did I move back east to like end up at a party with Andy Cohen and like smoking pot with him before he goes on Watch What Happens Live or after like,
Jackie Leonard 2:00:38
or be Yeah, or do whatever you want to be the breadwinner you want to be, again, that has
Diana Levy 2:00:41
been a dream of mine. And I've wanted to be a budtender but and bring some pot like a bud tender that I mean, to me, Andy Cohen has revolutionized women on television, he and he talks about he has reinvented the soap opera genre by creating this genre of television. And I think that he has this innate sense and respect as a gay man. Like I imagine him as a child or a teenager like loving hanging out with his mom, his friends, moms and kitchens, or like his mom's friends. And at a young age having this like deep love and respect for like, moms, and moms and women of a certain age. And I just think that he's I mean, my like, even say that my therapist is like a straight Andy Cohen, like I love Andy Cohen, and one of my favorite, and I don't, Eli thinks that he's my husband thinks that he's the devil that he's like, made giant steps back for women. But I couldn't agree less. And his bromance with John Mayer, like, talk about maybe I wouldn't write a whole dissertation, but I released right like a term paper.
Jackie Leonard 2:02:22
Oh, my gosh, we're gonna have to like set up a coffee date, because I'm like, very. I, I respect and I like you hearing you talk about Andy Cohen is like, I want to learn more about him. And he's like background. And then you know, John Mayer has really let me down from like, the first time I listened to some of his music, so So just putting them the putting of them together. It just makes me wonder, like, what do I think about all this? But what are they doing together? They're getting sound music? Probably.
Diana Levy 2:02:54
I mean, right. And I've met John Mayer before. And I can tell you that he is dreamy, beyond. So I imagine Andy just watches
Jackie Leonard 2:03:07
and a very bad boy.
Diana Levy 2:03:09
Yes, totally. Like you completely understand why that's why Andy Cohen asked me his best friend. Because Andy Cohen is not stealing any of the girls. He's no threat. He brings all of them. Because like, you know, all the ladies want to hang out. Andy Cohen, like, John Mayer knows what's up. He's my man for all the women.
Jackie Leonard 2:03:31
I listened to a podcast called celebrity memoir book club. Oh, yeah, yeah. And just a few of the memoirs that they've done. Like, I think two or three of them, like, talk about John Mayer, just like, it's like, he's the villain. I mean, I see John Mayer, you know, hanging out with Andy Cohen. I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. But I think you know, you probably
Diana Levy 2:03:58
John, as Andy brings out straight beautiful girls.
Jackie Leonard 2:04:01
Yeah. Yeah. I, it's very interesting hearing about like, yeah, this show is like an appreciation of, you know, women of a certain age and mothers from a from a queer lens, the lens of, you know, a gay man, who is similarly the, you know, similarly, Mark cherry who created Desperate Housewives. I have read, you know, also a gay man who grew up listening to his mom and her friends like gossip about what was going on in the neighborhood. And that was like his inspiration. And I think I knew this but I've had forgotten and read about it recently that the reason Real Housewives this is because of Desperate Housewives that it was kind of like an inspiration for the series. I don't know. I don't know if I read that directly from like, oh, no, it's 100%. Okay, I just want to double check? Yeah, but yeah, so you know that that tie in and I was even thinking about how even in a lot of ways like life imitated art with us for housewives because there's been a lot of kind of like there was a lot of drama with like the cast and behind the scenes. And then even recently, like or more recently, and Felicity Huffman and the college scandal, she was involved in that it just I was like, wow, like that show was little like, you know, you know, very, like much a soap opera inspired show. And then even like, some of the actresses had a lot of things going on that were very dramatic. But to end our conversation, even though I think we could, you know, just go on for hours on for hours. I thought it would be fun to quiz you on the lines from either real housewives or Desperate Housewives. And I love that was just like, I'm sorry.
Diana Levy 2:05:55
This is like a game that would be on Andy Cohen show. So I'm really excited about this. This is as close as I'm getting to a budtender.
Jackie Leonard 2:06:02
Okay, great, because I was like, I watch an episode of watch, which happens a few days ago, and I was like, Ooh, can I come up with a game that's similar? And then I guess I did. Yeah. So basically, I'm going to read a line from a character on either real housewives or Desperate Housewives. And you have to tell me which show it was. And if you'd know who said it, that's maybe even more like extra points. There are seven. Here we go. Lay it on me. Okay. I'm a bitch with a capital
Diana Levy 2:06:32
C. And I say that that's how real housewives it was Desperate Housewives. That was awesome. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 2:06:45
And I don't know what she even means. The capital. But there we go. Your blood type is peanut ratio.
Diana Levy 2:06:55
Oh, that's real housewives.
Jackie Leonard 2:06:57
That is correct. You know, do you know what series Ronnie? Ronnie? Yep, that was Kelly to Ramona Singer.
Diana Levy 2:07:05
Absolutely. We turtle time. We know Ramona loves her Pinot Grigio.
Jackie Leonard 2:07:10
I've read the Constitution and it does not protect ugly people.
Diana Levy 2:07:15
That is real housewives.
Jackie Leonard 2:07:19
I know Desperate Housewives for housewives. That was Gabby. So Desperate Housewives. Okay, I'm adorable. Crazy. He's rampage. Crazy. Huh? So I'm adorable. Crazy. He's rampage. Crazy.
Diana Levy 2:07:36
Desperate Housewives? Correct. That was
Jackie Leonard 2:07:41
Susan to her daughter. So that's two right? Let's see. Let me tell you something about my family. Were as thick as thieves and we protect each other till the end.
Diana Levy 2:07:53
Caroline Manzo Real Housewives of New Jersey? Correct.
Jackie Leonard 2:08:00
When do you send a little family van for six people?
Diana Levy 2:08:09
Real Housewives. Do you know which
Diana Levy 2:08:18
I want to say either Orange County or New Jersey.
Jackie Leonard 2:08:27
It was Orange County Vicki gunvalson EDA. I'll get
Diana Levy 2:08:32
a half point on that on. I didn't say who it was. But I knew the franchise.
Jackie Leonard 2:08:36
Yeah, that's good. Last one. Now I can't kill you. Today. I have Pilates.
Diana Levy 2:08:45
Desperate Housewives? That is correct. Three Vander cam
Jackie Leonard 2:08:49
from Desperate Housewives. So you got 123
Diana Levy 2:08:52
I made it a little warm up. But I think yeah,
Jackie Leonard 2:08:55
I think he got five out of seven. Like I think that's like a B
Diana Levy 2:08:57
plus. Yeah,
Jackie Leonard 2:08:59
I mean, yeah. And you know what? I'm reading them aloud. It's like you could see I kept out some of the ones with more, you know, profanity. So I was like, Okay, this is a network television show. I gotta make sure she doesn't think. Right. Right, exactly. So you did a great job. So
Diana Levy 2:09:15
I have to say, I started to get to the point. I was like, if I don't feel like this is a well written line. It's probably Desperate Housewives. Something that sounds too good to be written. That's real housewives.
Jackie Leonard 2:09:30
And I will say I think the Real Housewives lens were better, more saucy. Right, you go. As we come to the end with our wonderful conversation, I have to ask you what your thoughts are on whether or not this series this franchise, The Real Housewives? Would you consider it a mom advocate for Movember entertainment, which means that it represents motherhood and a more helpful than her Pull away. And true to life or, you know, accurate. Guilty pleasure, which where you could say it has some, some good and some problematic elements, mostly just entertainment value, or is it guilty of, you know, adding to the piles of mom guilt that other moms and us face? What's the app? Would you give that one?
Diana Levy 2:10:27
I think it's just a pleasure. It's not.
Jackie Leonard 2:10:31
It's not a guilty pleasure.
Diana Levy 2:10:33
It's just a pleasure. Yes. And I'm not sure if it's moving motherhood forward or backward in terms of how it's being portrayed. I don't think it attends to, though, but that's not it's just a pleasure.
Jackie Leonard 2:10:48
It's a pleasure. Yeah, we have to shave off the guilty pleasure. Laughter. Getting rid of appreciation, I think. Yeah. It's just a pleasure. Just just like this. Just a pleasure. Yes. And I encourage you know, I think what I've learned in these kinds of conversations I've had is that they are so fun. And I encourage people to do this more. Yeah, people you know, and just like put out feelers who watches this and see who doesn't then have a conversation, how fun.
Diana Levy 2:11:16
I know. And you know, I dropped off in coverings, I sometimes dip into covering housewives or Bravo stuff on my newsletter. And then I forget, or I don't, but I always get lots of DMS when I talk about housewives, so maybe I should get into it more.
Jackie Leonard 2:11:35
Well, that's how I got this like little, you know, inspiration to do it. Because I would, you know, mention or comment casually that I watched something and that's when I would get the most responses from people. I'm like, Okay, well, this is a conversation starter, let's get let's go in that direction. So yeah, I encourage you to do so.
Diana Levy 2:11:53
Let me know all the all the hot DMS that come in after
Jackie Leonard 2:11:57
I will, you know,
2:11:58
this? Yes.
Jackie Leonard 2:12:00
And, you know, I think this episode is going to air around me. But what? For anybody who's like been listening and hasn't really watched Real Housewives before? Where would you invite them or encourage them to begin?
Diana Levy 2:12:17
Okay. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is great, because there's only two seasons, so it's not overwhelming. So you can start and finish and be ready for season three. Potomac. Potomac just had its fifth season, I think it is so good. The women are so real and not real at the same time. And they're so funny. And like you genuinely like some of them, and you genuinely dislike some of them. And I just think Potomac is in less guesser, there's five or six seasons, but there's also like 15 seasons of New York. So like, I don't know if you can start. Like if you have that much time you can. But I also think something to not be discouraged about is how many seasons there is of a franchise you can start. Like this is not made for geniuses, you can start at whatever season,
Jackie Leonard 2:13:24
it's not made one but you can you can be a genius in Washington,
Diana Levy 2:13:28
you can be but it's not made for. And if you are a genius, it makes it all the easier to keep up. If you just start dipping in season 13. Like you're, if you're a genius, or less than you'll be able to figure out all the little stuff. So yeah, that's what I would suggest. I think Orange County. I think Atlanta's fantastic. You could start with the new season because they're kind of doing a big new cast reboot. So when that one comes out, and yeah, and New Jersey is like so great this season two, but you really need to know the history, I think on that one.
Jackie Leonard 2:14:09
So So are you saying that the Atlanta season is coming soon or will be current while people are? Okay, so the
Diana Levy 2:14:18
a bit of a cast reboot. We have some old people but like they've had a cast reboot, and Atlanta is the funniest one. So like this is a good moment to the next season coming up if you want to get into a classic, but a fresh new opportunity. This is the season for Atlanta.
Jackie Leonard 2:14:37
Okay, so Atlanta, Pata Mac Potomac, the topic. Sorry.
Diana Levy 2:14:44
You've never heard of Potomac until today so
Jackie Leonard 2:14:47
and Salt Lake City are what Dianna recommends and is prescribing for the enthusiast. So go for it for the beginners, beginners to beginners. How can people continue to connect with you after having listened to our wonderful conversation today,
Diana Levy 2:15:06
you can follow and subscribe to my newsletter through my Instagram. It's the light post. And it's a substantive newsletter called the light post. And it's just mom musings that I send out at 224 in the morning, which was when my daughter was, Oh, she's printed 20 4pm But I do it to twin four in the morning, when moms are usually up ordering shit on Amazon, for their newborns. Or the first thing you read when you wake up in the morning,
Jackie Leonard 2:15:39
as an I can attest, I feel I as a writer, myself to read the way you write about I think you won't be offended, like just like the mundane things in life and make them so like, you're the one of the emails that I opened the most.
Diana Levy 2:15:58
Thank you,
Jackie Leonard 2:15:59
I find them like just thank you. Short and sweet but funny and relatable and deep like the newsletter series that you wrote about like your experience with your nanny. I was just like, oh my god, like you just stuck me in so anyways, I I don't often encourage people to join newsletters because except mine, because they can be overwhelming but I feel like yours I would 100% and more recommend for people to jump on and just thank you. And I if somebody had told me that the longest podcast episode I would record was about the Real Housewives franchise. I would be like, No, here we are. Here we are. And your your mastery of this subject matter. So thank you. Thank you.
Diana Levy 2:16:47
Thank you. I can't wait to get my PhD from Harvard.
Jackie Leonard 2:16:52
As you should do thanks.