Why The Real Housewives is the Most Feminist Franchise on TV with Diana Levy [Part 1]
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Welcome to the newest episode of The Motherscope Podcast! This week I’m excited to chat about the Real Housewives franchise with somebody who is more well versed than I could ever be on this dynamic series that spans many years, many locations, and many topics. I wanted to bring back a guest who I've interviewed before, Diana Levy, because I know she says she could write a dissertation on this franchise and why it’s one of the most feminist series in TV history. Even though I've only watched a couple of the shows, I can say I have a lot to say about it and I'm looking forward to chatting with her and sharing our conversation with you today!
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Challenging the idea that women have to be likable on television and why women are at their best and most interesting in their 40s and beyond
How Housewives highlight “mommy issues” and why we need to see this more on TV
The way the show gives its Housewives freedom and confidence to make big life decisions
Breaking down the root of wealth (or lack thereof) for the women in the show and how it dictates how they live their lives
The key that alcohol plays throughout the show and if it’s a necessity or not for the entertainment of the show
The role that the viewer plays in contributing to unhealthy behaviors on the show, creating a more tangible reality
The tells that make a good Housewife character
RESOURCES MENTIONED
HuffPost Article: How 'The Real Housewives' and Reality TV Saved My Life by Danielle Belton
Returning to the Workforce as a First-Time Mom with Diana Levy
WRITING PROMPT
To echo Diana’s point that women are far more interesting in their 40s and beyond, list the ways your life has become more interesting as you’ve grown older?
GUEST BIO
DIANA LEVY is a writer, director, and producer, who works in both scripted and unscripted formats in TV as well as copywriting and blogging for brands in the health, wellness, and food space. Diana has written and developed shows for networks like ABC Family, YouTube Red, and Snap; as well as copywriting for brands and agencies like Headspace, Love Corn, The Original Farmers' Market, and The Right Now.Her first short film, C.U. Next Tuesday, was an official selection in six film festivals, including Austin After Dark, as well as the Dark Comedy Film Festival, where she received an award for Best Director.
After spending the last 15 years in Los Angeles, she has relocated back to the New York City area with the hopes of bringing her writing and developing skillset into creating and directing for purpose-driven lifestyle brands, while continuing her pursuit of telling stories with a darkly comedic point of view.
In March 2020, Diana created The Light Post, an online community for expectant parents, where she brought together experts in epidemiology and women’s health as a free, at-home resource to women and families all over the world— including Canada, Uruguay, and the UK. It has grown and transitioned into a weekly newsletter, whose readers include parents, non-parents, Hollywood and D.C moguls, tech gurus, as well as teachers, single parents, and artists. According to one marketing expert, The Light Post has a higher opening email rate than Clinique, which means, though it will not make you feel younger, it will certainly make you feel better.
CONNECT WITH DIANA
-
Jackie Leonard 00:02
Hello, hello, welcome to the podcasts this week, I am excited to chat about the Real Housewives franchise with somebody who is more well versed than I could ever be on this dynamic series of that split. I mean, I guess it's spans, I don't even have the total number right now that are active. But there are a number of different shows that have spun off after the first Real Housewives of Orange County launched. I have viewed the shows, and only a couple of different series. And so I wanted to bring back a guest who I've interviewed before, Diana Levy, because I know she is she says she could write a dissertation on this this franchise. And even though I've only watched a couple of the shows, I can say I have a lot to say about it. So I'm looking forward to chatting with her very soon. So without further ado, here's Diana. Hi, Diana, welcome to the podcast. I already said I had to bring you back on after your first interview with this podcast because I know that you are somebody who can speak a lot to The Real Housewives franchise. But first, can you introduce yourself for those listening?
Diana Levy 01:30
I'm Diana Levy. I am a director and a writer and an unofficial Real Housewives expert.
Jackie Leonard 01:38
And official I think we can make you official.
Diana Levy 01:40
I'm happy to teach I've lived I've been waiting for someone to make me official
Jackie Leonard 01:44
already said this in the intro when I recorded it a few minutes ago. But I said that you you've boasted that you could write a dissertation on the housewives franchise. So yeah, it makes you an expert write a PhD? Yeah.
Diana Levy 01:55
Like, honestly, I think that if I ever went back to school to like, get my masters or something, I would probably write my dissertation on The Real Housewives and feminism. And, yeah, media. So I'm reading about opinions, got my research, got my point of view.
Jackie Leonard 02:15
Perfect. Before we get into that, we are going to kind of shed a little bit of our mom guilt at the moment by sharing what each of us feels guilty of lately. And then we'll dive into the fun stuff. So do you would you like to rip the band aid off first? Or should I go? You can go. Okay. So, I mean, it's a number of things that I could choose from at any given moment. But I think one of the things that I felt pretty guilty about last night as a mom was, we just got back from a long, a two week road trip. And so when you're naturally away from home, your routine kind of gets a lot more lacs or just out the window. And we're not the most strict in terms of like schedule, but we do try to be more intentional about like that times at a decent time and all that. So that kind of went out the window while we traveled and my son was about to go back to school today. So last night, you know, time got away from it. And I think it was he didn't go to bed till like 10 o'clock. And I felt so bad. But we were just like we're still so out of our rhythm. He napped late because he you know was used to napping late when we were in a hotel. And so all these things just set us up set us back continuously. And
Diana Levy 03:35
10pm is late Boy Yeah,
Jackie Leonard 03:37
late. And you know, it's like when you have to it's like I got her down a little later. And we're used to kind of having like an hour or two between his bedtime and her bedtime because she goes down to like seven and he'll go down around like eight or 830 And so it was like that. I was used to that sort of gap and then I looked at the clock and I'm like oh my god it's 930 and we got to start you know, the bedtime routine and brushing teeth and it just it just adds up and so Daylight
Diana Levy 04:02
Savings Yeah, you're like oh my god like because it doesn't get dark till later and you're like oh shoot it's already time. Yeah,
Jackie Leonard 04:11
well and thank you because this is helping me feel less guilty because I'm not used to we were in California like Southern California where in Eugene Oregon it the sun goes down later up here than it did there and so I'm still like mentally not clocking that oh is later than what I was used to even when we were on our trip so anyway for all those reasons are like routine is just really out the window. I'm hoping my son does well because he did not get as much sleep as normally does today after a long break from school and the thing that really kind of like hammered in the guilt was he was like, oh, let's read I want to read another book. And I was like, No, it's already too late. We're not reading another book, go to bed. It was just like no ease into bedtime. It was like nope, nope, we got to do it and Um, I was like, you know, I gotta, I gotta try to rein it back in. Because we do like to take our time and read books and I can't do that when we're doing it so late at night.
Diana Levy 05:09
You won't remember that one night or whatever that you were like, no, go to bed. But yeah, I know I feel bad sometimes when I do that with Allison, I just like Russia into it. But then she could also read and you love having a child who loves to read books. You're like, keep going.
05:27
What about you
Diana Levy 05:29
move from my guilt. Well, I I picked up battles from school today and I as you're saying, how your son might be doing she's going through a really big growth spurt right now. I don't I haven't like checked up on wonder weeks of exactly what it is. But like she's just, there's a lot there's just a lot going on. She's talking a lot more but then she's feeling more like a baby like there's this progression kind of thing happening this like, I don't know, if it feels like this. Sometimes happens where it's like explosion and regression at the same time. And I picked her up from school. And she the teacher told me that she slapped everybody at school she got in a fight with every single person. And we don't hit each other at home, but I'm upon reflection. I do watch a lot of housewives so my husband keeps being like, like you can't cuz I get mad at him. It's like he's on his phone too much in front of her something and like watching like weird videos on the Twitter and Reddit of like, Americans being horrible people. And he's like, what I'm doing is not worse than what you are watching. And like the influence that it has on Alice but what do you think what he's watching is worse? Because like it said, I believe housewives is like modern feminism at its finest.
Jackie Leonard 07:10
We will get into that. Yes.
Diana Levy 07:13
Maybe not at its finest but at its finest exploration.
Jackie Leonard 07:20
Yeah, I like that. I think we can I mean, maybe I'm not a man hater. But I just on its own. I would say that whatever you're watching is probably better than whatever these general understanding.
Diana Levy 07:34
Yeah. It's just like, he's finding stuff on Reddit of people being like, racist and horrible to each other. And like, you know, he watches it late at night. I don't get it. I think watching housewives be racist and horrible with each other. Is maybe better?
Jackie Leonard 07:53
Well, that yeah, that topic, too. I want to get into later because I've noticed that there's like, a little bit of a reckoning. And I'm curious about your thought on it. Because I'm like, How are we supposed to watch these characters? Or are we intentionally supposed to kind of criticize them. And so of course, they would have all these other traits that are not so appealing?
Diana Levy 08:17
Well, but I'm just gonna dive right in here on that point, which is that it's an I'm seeing you, as the viewer who's saying that and you as like the general population, but you, you have been programmed to believe and see or feel like women on television have to be likable, and have to be these appealing people. And what I appreciate about housewives is that most of them are not. And it is of a certain generation, a woman that we don't often get to see on television or in movies, because Hollywood has decided that any woman over 40 isn't interesting anymore. And I actually think that that's when we become the most interesting when we have kids when we have we are more confident in itself. And maybe have had our own reckoning of where the world limited us. And so then also we are a little angry. And some of these women, like they say things that like are so funny and onpoint that you couldn't even write it. And there's this actor, Michael Rapaport, who I feel like everybody really loves but he's a big housewives fan. And he think he often talks about it being some of like the, like Meryl Streep would kill for some of those lines. That some of those housewives come up with, like kill for some of those parts. Yes, I'm so. And there's also a part of me that believes that geniuses watch the show.
Jackie Leonard 10:11
Just to have us to talking about it right now. Yeah,
Diana Levy 10:16
we're having genius groundbreaking conversation right now?
Jackie Leonard 10:20
Well, I think the proof is in the product, right? You talk about how like, these stories are interesting, these, these women who are of a certain age that we've been conditioned to believe are an interesting and should like, go hide in their homes. They're making a lot of money for some people out there. So, you know, you can say one thing and message one thing, but like, you're making these these series, and maybe they're creating an awakening of sorts that these show these, these stories, and these women are fascinating at the ages that they are, I would argue that some of the younger cast members that they bring in are a lot less interest. Yeah,
Diana Levy 10:59
for sure. Because they're next
Jackie Leonard 11:00
to each other, because you see, like, the confidence that's like, you know, bordering on like, you know, diagnosis, but like, you know, the older women are just so much more refined, and they're just unabashed who they are. And then you've got the younger ones who seem to not quite know as confidently in the same way and I feel like it's more glaring seeing them next to each other and sometimes some situations.
Diana Levy 11:27
Yeah, I think that's also why you don't necessarily see a lot of housewives in like early babyhood. Like I think it's not a good environment necessarily for new mom, although Ashley Darby Real Housewives of Potomac will. I mean, one of the greatest housewives of all time, has had two babies on the show with her husband who cheats on her. And she still just stands by her man has her babies isn't trying to like be anything. Because so many of them also are like starting their own businesses and like their own skincare line and like they're so entrepreneurial now, which is another thing that we'll get into, but actually derbies they're just like having their babies, breastfeeding on camera, starting fights and like confrontations with people with her boobs out. And to me, that's good TV.
Jackie Leonard 12:36
I've not seen that series. And now I'm a lot more intrigued than I would toMac is.
Diana Levy 12:44
Okay, this is an analogy that I've been doing for a while. Facebook is to Roni as Beverly Hills is to Instagram as Potomac is to tick tock boo. Okay, and like, which ones? Uh huh.
Jackie Leonard 13:03
Which was the Twitter? Orange. Okay. So the TIC tock is the Potomac. Is that how you say Potomac? Potomac. Okay,
Diana Levy 13:13
which would feel like a sleeper because you're like, where's Potomac? But yeah, it's, it's got some of the best. And they actually, you know, there's an interesting, one of the women on it, her name is Candace doesn't want to have kids. And actually, this past season, when Ashley was having her baby, Candice, like, would come after her and make her feel bad for her body, make her feel bad about breastfeed, like, told her to, like, get out, like, take your like, little milk made, like take your bottles and get out of here kind of thing and like shaming her, which was something that I've never seen before. Women shaming other women for doing the most natural thing in the world. So that was an interesting, kind of dynamic to see. Because you're not gonna see that on a scripted show on television.
Jackie Leonard 14:11
Yeah, and what's interesting is I just had a conversation about I don't know if you've watched the series working moms. Yeah. And I was remarking that, you know, there's the there's like one character who's not a main character who's like the punching bag and she's like, the more natural holistic mom and she's like, the butt up all the jokes. And I was saying, you know, in in this scenario, like, it felt like, you know, they're advocating for like, doing things differently or having different choices as moms but then then at the same time, they're like, kind of like coming hard shaming, shaming the one and the end. I wish that there that comedy could have been like, more fleshed out so it didn't have like the butt of the joke while they're trying to like, you know, champion the different types of motherhood there could be. And so to see, and I was saying, I don't know that you would see as often the shaming of a breastfed beating mom, on TV. Now, maybe you would have, I don't know, there was just like, interesting. So it was interesting that it was on that show, too, that they were Yeah, they were doing that. So
Diana Levy 15:22
I know, it felt like a very modern thing to see. And it also I imagine that anyone listening to this episode is being drawn into the fact that it's been about Real Housewives. So I'm hoping there are people listening who know what I'm talking about. But you know, because some of the stuff is deep cuts, but Potomac. Candice has so many mommy issues too, specifically, like her mom is one of the few moms in the franchise's that kind of like, play a role and officially. And so I think for Candace to also kind of take out her mommy anger on this person was also just like an interesting thing, because I think we talked about this a little bit, but like, I feel very strongly that like, every, it's the patriarchy that talks about daddy issues and makes it something popular, but really the most interesting thing to discover our mommy issues when you're a mom, and resolving your own issues with your mom and your motherhood while you're cutting a mom yourself. And I think Candice doesn't have it, like is not fully grown enough to confront her issues with her own mom in order for her to be able to have a baby. That's why I think she hasn't had one yet.
Jackie Leonard 16:50
Yeah, so Candace is the one who was, you know, kind of projecting or, you know, coming after the mom, the mom who was breastfeeding? I think what I think is interesting about these types of situations is like you said, because there's such a, like, there's not this like filter, let's show a more defined woman or an mortified Mother, you're seeing like, the ugly sides of women in a way that we just aren't used to. And at the same time, they're not like, overtly being villainized. It's just kind of like this is, you know, here it is kind of thing. And so let me
Diana Levy 17:35
be clear, yeah. Candice is one of the biggest villains.
Jackie Leonard 17:40
I have not watched it. So I guess she,
Diana Levy 17:42
anyone who's listening, who knows the domek knows that Candice is like, the villain. So she, she's been villainized. Don't you worry.
Jackie Leonard 17:53
Well, so then that's interesting, because it's like, that's some commentary, right? It's like the person who's doing the mom shaming is the villain, right? Not that other characters, I'm sure have done their own share at different points. But but she would be she would be the one right to to cut. Yeah, yeah.
Diana Levy 18:10
Well, and it was amazing actually, to see the cast also in those confrontations be like, Whoa, like, you're crossing a line. Because there's almost no line to be crossed. There's that one line, the Universal line to not cross in. In housewives is talking about people's kids. But right. You know, that's always like the kind of moment but the breastfeeding doesn't feel like necessarily talking about the kid, but it is sort of in that space a little bit. Yeah, it was definitely a redrawing of the boundaries. Totally.
Jackie Leonard 18:54
So yeah, yeah. And to be clear, I'm sure. I mean, it would be even it would be just as maybe even more so of an overstep if it were formula feeding mom who was getting incredibly criticized the same way, I think, saying, but I just wanted to know, this kind of reminds me of a question that I had for you, as a viewer, as somebody who you say like is a very, you know, big fan of the theory of the franchise? Do you watch these shows and see like real people real lives? Or are you kind of like taking it in as theater and suspension of disbelief kind of viewing experience?
Diana Levy 19:31
Definitely theater and real lot of theater in charactery versions of people's lives. But also there are people who you see on there who you're like, Oh, honey, you think that like you're too real? You're being you're like, you're you've signed up for the wrong show. Like you can't handle being here. You're not like you're, you're playing the normal card and we're not here for normal But like, on occasion some buddy will be like, for as character and ridiculous as some of their lives are. And there's still an element of whatever they're going through, or something that somebody's going through that does connect. So like the Ashley Darby thing, I think is a really good example of like, how grocery fit like just how you feel about your body and people commenting about your body while you're in that new baby breastfeeding space. And then yeah, I don't know, I just and like, Erika Jayne, for example, going being sued for $50 million. That's not relatable, but I like the true crime crossover that's happening in the genre. So yeah, and that's a very mom centric space. So I like that. But then, you know, on New Jersey, everyone's kind of related or is known each other for a really long time. So those people feel more like themselves. They're not. It's not like Beverly Hills, where they're like, always in these like, insane outfits doing these fancy dinners. Like they're still just doing their like barbecue on Fourth of July down the shore. And like, with their salad bowls, like it's so regular, and their relationship, inter relationship complications feel for the most part, at some point more grounded than others. Okay, but I think there's a you know, I think, if you want to watch crazy people, you can watch crazy people. But if you also want to watch it for something to relate to, you can also do that. Yeah, I think that there's something for everyone.
Jackie Leonard 21:56
Well, it, it's interesting, because like my exposure to the Real Housewives franchise, I think going into it, I was very much a person who was like, I would never watch this kind of show. And my sister's like, really heavy handedly were like, You need to watch and like, I think one night I just like binge was with them. While they were watching the OC series. And I remember at the time, I think I was a new mom at the time, or,
Diana Levy 22:28
I don't know, like, What year was this? Let's figure out the year because it was
Jackie Leonard 22:32
a journey. So they and they took it back to like, older seasons to like, introduce me they like wanted to like, Let's get her in, you know, to some of the good early stuff. But what I remember at the time, what's what I think is interesting is at the time, I remember I was at a place in my life where I was kind of start, I think I was either pregnant or a new mom, I can't remember the exact time but I was very like feeling very insecure. And also like I wanted to stop talking badly about other people because it was making me feel like other people were talking about me and so I was trying to be more like self aware. Like, okay, well if I don't like if I'm feeling worried about people doing this to me, I should not be like gossiping, or I should not be totally, you know, critiquing.
Diana Levy 23:22
But what's your word? Yeah. For agreement says,
Jackie Leonard 23:27
right? And so watching the show was almost like stirring up like that, like making me feel very like this is like encouraging that out of me. It's making me want to like criticize these women because I can't help it. I shouldn't be watching this. So I kind of like stepped away from it for a while. And then in like the last, my sisters again, we're like, you need to watch Salt Lake City. It's it's bad shit. You need to like, watch this. It's good. And I was like, to be honest, I was like, I don't want to watch a show about a bunch of Mormons that are actually great. It's just not it's not. franchises. Yeah. And I was like, they were like, no, no, no, I'm serious. You have to watch it. And I was like, it sucked me back in and as and now with where I am now, I feel like I am watching it. And there is some level of like, oh, I kind of connect with this character more for whatever reasons. But I'm watching it very much like it's like a even though it's considered reality TV. It has this like theatrical element where it's like, these are people that are fitting some sort of like the production of it feels very similar across different series. And I'm gravitated to the people that are really like going all in versus the ones that were more like I don't know, relatable is where I was kind of trying to look for before. And now I'm like I love the problematic characters like Jen Shaw and like, one of
Diana Levy 24:49
the greatest housewives of all time. And even it'll be a short run for her because he's going to jail, I'm sure. But man she made an impact
Jackie Leonard 24:58
and even married Cosby on that. Serious as well as like, fascinating.
Diana Levy 25:04
And that's daddy. I think that's mommy issues too. I thought mommy and daddy issues.
Jackie Leonard 25:09
Yeah. And, you know the famous like combat like the dig that they all say is that she married her her step granddaddy is
Diana Levy 25:17
Yeah. Like, just like so come about that in scripted television. Oh, if I, I was writing in TV for a while. I submitted a script with a character married to her step Granddaddy. And like, the network would be like, No, that's you doing? That can be that can be like a, that can be a character, a story reveal in season three, like, after we've established that this show is good and grounded and blah, blah, blah. But like, that's not a that's not an early season. That's not a pilot reveal. That's insanity. That works on the housewives. Yeah. And I would also argue, by the way that you said, you didn't, you were starting to watch it. But you didn't want to be talking shit about people. And excuse me,
Jackie Leonard 26:11
talk, that's fine.
Diana Levy 26:15
But that says to me that you were already looking to them as your friends that you felt a relatability to them. And maybe that's what you're saying. We're a little too relatable.
Jackie Leonard 26:26
I think that's where I was. Yeah, that was like the initial place that I was going to either I was, yeah, I was connecting to them on this emotional level. And it's funny watching newer seasons of that, say, like, some of the same people and being like these people are so like, Now Heather dobro is back on the OC and I'm just like, this woman is insane, and sane. And either like, and she's like, she's has like, dabbled in acting. So I'm like, is she just like putting on a show for everyone? Is Yeah, a lot of touch. I don't know. But it's like all of it. It's yeah. And I'm just like, This is crazy.
Diana Levy 27:02
Can I ask you? Sure? Where do they get all of their money?
Jackie Leonard 27:08
Well, and that's, that's the huge thing for me to that. I'm just like, I really like and maybe they want to keep it kind of under the radar. But that's something that I've been fascinated about with her. Especially, and, and the illusion of money. And also like juxtapose with like the characters that very obviously don't have money. And I'm like, how are they on the show to begin with? If like, they're obviously so out of the League of what you thought that creates more
Diana Levy 27:41
interesting dynamics? Yeah, it puts people on different levels. Gina for like, I mean, a couple seasons ago, Gina was in a really rough place. I don't know if you were watching the season, but she and her husband were going through a bad divorce. He had hit her she'd had a DUI. She has little kids, like their shit was falling apart on national television. And then now she's like, got her little townhouse with by the beach which is a huge accomplishment and wonderful but in to the scale of Heather's bro is basically like living in a shoebox. But she's now best friends with Heather dobro and gets to like go with her on her private jet to New York City and all that stuff but I just can't feel I can't the money on the Dobro does not add up to me because you your overall deal at or whatever at EA or Bravo to make your show about plastic surgery is not like a $60 million house
Jackie Leonard 28:59
right? Well they they bounce or they move so much that I'm just like Dude, what are they like? What is their like this illusion of wealth that they're like yes, kind of obviously playing up to like because we saw where they were before and they were always like above like most like at the top level of like the wealth of the other housewives but it like almost like when so much it like went so much beyond what we had seen before. And almost then to the degree is like if they have this much money they're doing infomercials and why are they like coming on this series again? Like what's the what are they trying to like continue to build or why like, and why? I don't know. It's just fascinating with them. And I also was always kind of a little mystified by Shannon but doors wealth because I felt like she came in. She's probably one of the ones that I enjoy watching the most on that franchise. But she came on and she was you know So, we learned that she was very wealthy, and she came from wealth. And we are like, she kind of like I think it was mentioned that she, like, helped her husband basically begin his construction business that was successful. And then they of course, are they don't of course, but they very, you know, dramatically ended their relationship after he, you know, had a few public adultery episodes, and he left her and then she kind of talked about how like she went from having all this money and that you thought was kind of from her side to like being like, I am poor again, you know, where I'm poor. And you know, really playing up the like, I you know, my kids can't go to like the college they want to and all these things and me knowing some level of like, well, wouldn't they have set up like a college account for their kids? Like, why are you? Why are you acting like you can't afford a house when I thought that money came from you? And all these different things that she played up? I was like, How much money do you have? Maybe you so last, but
Diana Levy 31:02
I think I think Shannon, cuz she's grown up there and lived there forever. I think they got in. Like they're have I think they got in on the housing market down there. From her inherited What, like maybe their her parents helped them buy their house, or whatever it was, or their first house. And they were in it long enough that they could leverage it to like this big house, but not because there was necessarily not because of David's success, but because of what investing early in real estate can do to increase your wealth. That's
Jackie Leonard 31:46
Hmm, that's a good point. And then, you know, what we know of the housing market has? Yeah,
Diana Levy 31:51
yeah. And then when you get divorced, and you get out of the house, it sounds like what they did was they, the biggest asset was probably the house, and that they split the house or 5050. And David, still who he is, which is a shitty dad, who couldn't ever really keep up anyway. So to split the house, and then also be relying on him to give some sort of, you know, what is called alimony and stuff. I think that her anger of her cornice comes from her poor choice of marrying David.
Jackie Leonard 32:31
Yeah. He went off and started a new family. So Right. Yeah. Yeah. And also he
Diana Levy 32:38
works in construction people who will work in construction and stuff. Contractors, they do make money. Yeah, it's not. It's not like startup money. If you like, go public. It's not finance money, but like it. It's good money. And then you also like, know how to do stuff yourself on your house and can like, do updates and increase the value of your house? in smart ways, you know?
Jackie Leonard 33:05
Yeah. So I've Yeah, so I feel like it kind of went off track, but obviously, they might have brought it off. Oh, no, it's okay. How much money do these people really have has been like a huge question mark. And now we're veering into territory with like characters like Gen Shaw, where they're like, it never added up. And I'm like, well, for a lot of these people. That this is what they do. And they magically have this many, because a lot of them don't. Some of them we kind of know didn't come from money. But there's not like this openness of like, I you know, started off with this amount of money from my family, or I, you know, we got some big whatever windfall. Yeah, this idea of like, like, even like Vicki gunvalson, it's like, I started this, this insurance company insurance, tons of money, and I'm just like, wow, really? Like that's how that's all you got to do. I mean, she Yeah, hurt. She's notorious for having husbands or partners that lived off of her. So it's like, that was all her based on what we're seeing.
Diana Levy 34:14
That's the other thing about the show that and we kind of touched on it a little bit in the beginning that I think is really, what makes it really amazing and special, too, is that these women who may have an actually Tamra judges on OC is a very good example. And I'll like kind of struggle back with her but like, these women, most of them really were to a certain point, maybe more earlier in the franchise than now. It's not even like our have not had jobs. And now they are they have been in the shadow of their husbands and not working. And now they become A star on a very popular show. And suddenly they have a career and it gives them freedom. And they have confidence that they can make their own money and stand on their own two feet. And that's why I think there's always so many divorces because these women finally have independence and have like their own thing and Tamra on Watch What Happens Live with Andy thanked him
Jackie Leonard 35:35
all that episode, I saw she thinks like,
Diana Levy 35:38
you changed my life, like you gate you showed me freedom. Like this got me out of my marriage and got me to stand on my own two feet, like, and Bravo, bravo to all of them for just, you know, what is the begot, like, bearing the children then going back to business, like, you know, work it, working it doing what they have to do.
Jackie Leonard 36:07
And Tamra. She was one of the characters that I brought up, kind of like a storyline from her series on the show. But what I remembered as you were talking was her husband was just like, she was in a very, like, toxic relationship. Controlling and it's like, yeah, I mean, you're starting to turn me on to this is like this feminists. Because it's like, you give you give a woman who has been, you know, pushed aside who has been basically like, however they got into these relationships are, are essentially like these trophy wives are just there to raise the kids. You give them you center them, you put put a spotlight on them, and then they realize, Oh, I'm worth way more than what I thought I was like, looking. And I'm going to do all these things. And I have opportunity. And I'm not hacking. I can't I can't criticize that at all. That's amazing. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. And it's, it's so telling. And I one thing that I found fascinating when I first started watching was just how awful all the other men are like the the spouses and boyfriends are on these shows. They're always just like, they're not main characters pretty often, but they're like, always just like, what like, oh my god, this guy is awful. What? Like who aren't like, they're just either? I don't know. They're just so bad that it's like,
Diana Levy 37:35
what do you think about because you're watching Salt Lake City? What do you think about Seth? Oh, God.
Jackie Leonard 37:46
I so it's been interesting, because I feel like and you've done you know, scripted, you've you've written, you know, scripted television. I always feel like the second season is like, notoriously for different reasons. I'm not saying that salt lake was bad, but I was actually drawn to Meredith in the first season. Me too. And then the second season like he wrote her husband that she like, they kind of reunified at the end of the first season and they're like, together more they were separated at the beginning. He really like put a bad taste of it. i What really kind of like turned me off to him was how much you would talk about the other wives like breasts? Yeah. I was like, that's what curious like, what it was, it made me so uncomfortable on it. And there's been different, like husbands that have done this on different shows that I've watched. And like, the things that make the housewives mad, are so like, like so petty, and then you have a husband, who is like, gawking at another housewives boobs. And that doesn't become like this huge plotline. It like is beyond me. I think at one point like, well, I and then on the OC series, David, but, but Dora famously, like said something about Heather and Heather's husband, Terry calls him like a penis or something.
Diana Levy 39:09
Yeah. What I was gonna say is like, it actually depends on the franchise. Sometimes there's like, to be honest, the boops thing with Seth and Whitney, would be an entire storyline on Real Housewives of Orange County. But Real Housewives of Salt Lake City has so much other shit going on that it's just a blip in in one episode, but like, like on Beverly Hills When Erica Erica one time wore a skirt without underwear on or something and PK who talked about how do we where did this money come from? Because he literally only manages Boy George who has not made like, what are we talking about here? Like, come on, man. and PK says to read his wife like, I could see, I saw Eric because the Dinah basically because she was wearing a short skirt and the whole end as a joke. The next time she greets saw Erica, she gave her like little lingerie, like underwear and was like here, this is for next time or something. And it was supposed to be cute. And it ended up being the entire storyline for the season of how he was shaming Erica, and they shamed her and all this stuff. And but like Whitney, for example, is the one holding cake. Right? Yeah, so
Jackie Leonard 40:43
here's the boobs. Yeah. Well, that's interesting, because I guess I was surprised by how I mean, maybe like you said, because there's so much going on that that couldn't become a storyline in Solly. Yeah. But like, I was like, why is mad Meredith not more offended or upset by this, but other things that other, you know, other characters have done related to her family are like such an overstep, and I was like, Well, I
Diana Levy 41:07
think that they still aren't really together. And I don't think that she respects him. And I think that they'll probably get divorced and I think she's probably fucking other people.
Jackie Leonard 41:17
Yeah. This is all making me want to be like, Oh, what do you think of this one? What do you think of this person?
Diana Levy 41:25
I tell you, I could do a dissertation. Like, I should teach. I could teach a course that we can talk any franchise any person. Let's keep going
Jackie Leonard 41:35
well, so Okay, so I obviously I don't know if I've said this already. But I've only watched OC in Salt Lake City. So like, that's my limited kind of whatever. I'm probably there you think Who do you think is like the villain? The real villain? There's the ones that people say, Who do you think is the villain of the Salt Lake series?
Diana Levy 41:56
Stuff question, Jackie. I think the real villain is Lisa.
Jackie Leonard 42:07
Oh, okay.
Diana Levy 42:11
But she is a villain who falls on the producers sword. So like, there's some housewives that are producing the show, as they're in it. Lisa Rinna is a great example of somebody who knows the TV game and produces and creates drama, I think. And you always need one of those on the on each franchise to make story happen. And I think Lisa does that. I think she says something in somebody's ear that says something else. And like, she knows how to generate that. And that helps her keep her job. So not everybody likes to be the villain. It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. And so respect to Lisa, for stepping up to the plate. And frankly, just being her true self. But, um, I think what she I think that makes her the villain because I think that every all the drama kind of comes back to Lisa, if something that Lisa said or told somebody that somebody said, and I do think that what she said about Meredith on the Hot Mic, even though she may have done it kept the mic on for television, which by the way, respect, literally falling on the sword, but I was fucked up stuff she said on national television, about someone who she's apparently friends with way before and kind of out of nowhere. And just like, very quickly, just really, like stomped all over somebody. Yeah, and I think that's tough to come back from. But
Jackie Leonard 44:11
yeah, well, and what's what I find interesting with some of these characters is they're, they're just so they will not they like so bad and apologies. Yeah, it's like, it's that's you know, it's like that's the thing that's really interesting to see in it, it kind of it's reflective of what you see just in North like with everyday people that you know, you interact with, but just on such a heightened level. There's just the inability to see like even when they apologize, they're just like, I'm sorry if that made you feel that way. If it was not my intention and it was like Lisa, you've literally like, slandered every like elements of that person's life there. That was not my intention. as well, and then she also was like pointing the fingers like, yeah, you guys did this to me. Everybody hate me and it was like you were yelling loudly and so good. Yeah. What do you think about like the way alcohol plays like a huge role in a lot of the like messiness of these housewives. Do you think it's something that's like a key element like a requirement of this show for it to be what it is? Yeah. Well, okay. So that
Diana Levy 45:38
well, it will say, I am not a so I tried selling a show with one of my friends. Who was she was in the new New York Times Forbes. Like really great press. I want. We shot a sizzle for her. She is a she was a cannabis matchmaker, so like a matchmaker for stoners. And like so to speak, finding love for stoners. And what was difficult about selling the show? And like the content out of it, is that pot makes you like chill, and not confrontational. It's not interesting. It's watch people sit and do nothing. And like, be peaceful. It's to me. I mean, yeah, like it was nothing watch. Whereas alcohol is the exact opposite kind of thing. So do I think you can still, like Louisiana? So we're, you know, it's deals with sobriety and has done full seasons of the show, sober, and had just as many dramatic moments and stuff. So I think you can be sober on the show. But I also think that a lot of the good television comes from the conflict that happens when people are drinking. I think they, but I think it breeds unhealthy relationships to alcohol, like half of the Roni cast, like should be in a 12 step program. But they feel like an especially I think in Roni, which is also like very part of New York culture. Of like, people are always going out and drinking and sitting never sleeps, and like you just drink more. But it I think they feel like this sucks. their paycheck is tied to their drinking, which, like, I'm some I grew up with alcoholics in my house and stuff. And so I that part I don't love and like when they're screaming at each other, drunk, like those are usually the episodes that I'm like, I can't listen to it really anymore. Because it doesn't. And like seeing Dorinda, slur, seeing Sonia, like, fall back drunk and have to go to the hospital with the concussion and stuff that starts to be like, not cute, and it makes me as a viewer feel bad because I don't want to you know, enable what's happening, but that's also I think, a reckoning that you have as a viewer in that way is like, you want to watch it and they're doing it for you, and you're watching them. It gets dark. And that's when I'm like, This is
Jackie Leonard 48:46
too real. Yeah, like, it's like the there's like the person who does it just enough to be like, outrageous, and then there's inevitably going to be a few people that take it too far. And then it Yeah, it reminds me of I mean, I used to watch real world I don't I mean you know and it's alcohol was a big part of that there became a point where there would be like the one character that was like very obviously, taking it too far. And but I like that you know that the prevalence of alcohol may be fueled by like the production but in the lifestyles that a lot of these the circles that they run in the lifestyles that a lot of these women lead, alcohol is just part of constantly flowing like it's not like it's this like kind of planted thing that's not normal in their normal lives.
Diana Levy 49:40
So I used to work on the show unreal, which is based on The Bachelor and a show like The Bachelor they're definitely feeding you alcohol to make the drama. It's not the same on the housewives, but it's still being used in the same way, right? But it's not like oh, So much of a requirement of the experience quite like I think it is on those kinds of shows. And also the real world used to have this, this rule that like, if you hit somebody, you're fired. You're off like, yeah,
Jackie Leonard 50:14
that was like, I don't know what that was like the line, like, yeah, crossed that that was not
Diana Levy 50:19
the same on the show. Like, what is it going to take for us to? I don't know, that was like a brow or like a line that was an early reality television that at some point just got thrown away. And we just accepted and endorsed the idea of people also getting violent with each other, and like, these women will sometimes on housewives, like, throw wine glasses on each other and like, that's sharp,
Jackie Leonard 50:46
and it's no big deal. It's kind of like, okay, like they deserved it. I, I read that the one thing that they're not allowed to do, or though like, it's like, part of their contract is they can't sue one another. And I'm not sure what the ramification is, if something like that happened. I feel like like you mentioned, the true crime crime element has gotten kind of more and more heated on these shows. I'm, like, really curious about how they make that happen. Because I'm like, did like, let's say, like, Jen Shaw, for example, like, did Andy interview this person? And was like, there's definitely something off with her. Let's bring her on. And then she was like, indicted, or like, was it already like rumbling? You know, I'm just like, curious how he's how, you know, the production is like finding these people that just naturally have, you know, well, I think they've got it? Or is it just in that world that's going to inevitably?
Diana Levy 51:46
Well, I think there's something common, um, I just want you to know that I'm having the best time right now. This
Jackie Leonard 51:52
is like, I'm totally, we're gonna make this pie a two parter. I'm like, you
Diana Levy 51:58
know, I Gosh, it's so it's great. This is like a really great afternoon. So the sun? God, what was it? We were talking about? Sorry, can you just rhyme
Jackie Leonard 52:12
and like the vetting of these characters? Oh, having I think,
Diana Levy 52:15
I think the casting and producers have been doing this long enough. And there's enough of these people will to know that the money doesn't add up, when you like, when they they're interviewing and casting. And she's like, my husband is a coach for a d3 football team. And then they see all of her shit, she has all this chanel bubble, blah, like, I think immediately, that's an interesting person, because the money doesn't add up. So something's going to happen there. I don't think that they necessarily know. But I think there's some tells that make a good housewife. And I think that is the money nodding at not adding up as number one. Um, or like, being married to have famous TV star or something. But we're actors and things like that. But so I think that and then I think, I don't know, there's part of me, maybe this is too naive. But like, there's so much like miracle that happens in making TV and making movies and stuff like that, where like, and what I think is so great about unscripted is the idea of like, you couldn't write this if you tried. And like, the formula works for itself. And that way, if you have your couple tells of how you're casting, you might not know what's coming, but something's coming. And I think potential investigation was going on for almost 10 years. So like, and I think, Jen Shaw in particular, and some of these people in particular, and maybe even air, Erica and Tom, but to be that kind of person to come to do those kinds of things in general, you have to be to be somebody who pulls off crimes like that, and then also wants to be on television. You have to be such a deep narcissist that you cannot see. I mean, it's like not to get political, but like the, the Trumps, like, there's no cause you don't see the possibility of consequences ever coming for you. So you live your life accordingly.
Jackie Leonard 54:42
Yeah, it's almost like a next level. Like, I'm gonna keep going like being more in in your face about it. Because I like it. Like they get off on like that. Yes. That Yeah, absolutely. To be so like, a part of it. Yeah. And so it's like, this is like leveling up for them. Hmm, it's, I mean, I mean, like, again, it makes for good TV and then you're like, Okay, she's watching those or not, but it was just like, saying, like, the Feds raid the van out right after like Jen run like, Oh, I gotta go like it was just like I was like, This is crazy. This is not something some of the best television you could I know, you know, like you say, I have not seen this kind of like, and so like unique like it's like I feel like a lot of scripted TV that we know the drama like has already been written and it's been like re done so many times that it's like that's yeah,
Diana Levy 55:35
like, you've seen the batch like, cycle 37 or whatever the whatever it is, it's like always the same story.
Jackie Leonard 55:42
But even with like some of the things that I see, like you always see like the two friends on The Real Housewives that are like, you know, planting the seeds and stirring the pot. Everyone else is reacting to it are the people that kind of latch on to other people's storylines, because they don't have one but they're still hanging in there. Like there's certain elements that are like I've seen at least on the two shows and the different seasons that I've watched. But then you get these like wild things or even like with OC and the like Becky's boyfriend was faking cancer storyline, which is like insane, and then saying
Diana Levy 56:19
best seasons thing bring out like
Jackie Leonard 56:21
the inner detective of the different Housewives was like so anyways, I just like that's like the stuff that you just are. I mean, I think that's what happens when you get women together and let them just like
Diana Levy 56:33
when, when Whitney all of a sudden, in the Jen Shaw reveal is like, fucking excuse me. Like, Inspector Gadget knows all the ins and outs of what she's being sued for just and to the point where it's like, Do you have experience with this? Like, why are you but like, all of a sudden, you know, like, little Whitney all of a sudden sounds like really smart. And like she knows what she's talking about. And you're like,
Jackie Leonard 57:10
where did this come from? Do you just like a PII for the Feds at that point? I know I've done my research and I know what this exactly. And I know exactly what she's charged with like an hour after she was arrested. Yeah, what
Diana Levy 57:28
she is that it was good. I was it was it Meghan? Was it Meghan who was the one who was really digging in? Yeah. But on Vicki.
Jackie Leonard 57:40
Yeah, she was also the one who the younger cast member who like became the researcher and looked at the medical records. This isn't a real report. I have what it looks like a real report. And here's it just she found
Diana Levy 57:53
herself a storyline. Yeah, she became a good little student and found herself a storyline. Exactly.
Jackie Leonard 57:57
She's really interesting. I feel like she really latched on to the mommy like she became a mommy influencer after her tenure on the show.