Monarchy and Motherhood on The Crown with Haley Hatcher
ABOUT THE EPISODE
On The Motherscope Podcast, I’m talking about a show that really took me by surprise – Netflix’s The Crown. It took me a while to be open to watching it – even after hearing from many people how great it was. Even though I’ve grown up with a general awareness of the Royal Family gossip, I realized while watching that I knew very little about Queen Elizabeth and the current British monarchy. Now that I’ve seen all four current seasons, I can say I appreciate this show for its history lessons, the drama, its critical eye, and for offering a peek into a world none of us will ever truly know – to include the inner conflicts of the members of the British Royal Family. When my podcast manager and soon-to-be mom of two, Haley, learned of our theme for Season 2 of the podcast, she asked if I’d be covering The Crown, because it’s one of her go-tos. So of course, we had to make an episode for it happen, and I’m so glad we did. Enjoy.
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Dealing with the guilt that comes with preparing for your second baby and getting comfortable with speaking up for you children, especially as an introvert
The way that the role of Queen of England was instilled in Elizabeth at a young age and how this permeated into her style of mothering
How Haley balances her feeling about the Royal family in real life with how they are portrayed on The Crown
The ways modernization and progress has helped and/or hindered how the Royal family operates
Generational trauma that is never addressed by the upper class/Royal family and how this deeply affects parental relationships
How the Queen and other Royal family members are denied unconditional love because of their standing
How expectations of the Queen’s behavior mirrors many of the traditional expectations of motherhood
The opposing approaches to mothering between British leaders, the Queen and Margaret Thatcher, but how they both yield the same results
Why The Crown is a guilty pleasure – it shows us the mothers we want to be by showing us what we don’t want to do
RESOURCES MENTIONED
WRITING PROMPT
What are the traditions in your family that you wish to honor and continue with your own? What traditions do you wish to leave in the past?
GUEST BIO
HALEY HATCHER is the founder + CEO of Heart Centered Podcasting where she works with her team to amplify the voices of ambitious, heart centered women through full service podcast launch support. Haley has been supporting podcasters since 2017, but started her own business back in 2019. She has helped dozens of clients launch and manage their shows, garnering 200,000+ downloads for her clients combined. When she’s OOO, you can find her playing outside with her toddler, attempting to break a sweat at the gym, or trying to fit in some quality time with her husband.
CONNECT WITH HALEY
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Jackie Leonard 00:04
Hi, Haley, welcome to the podcast.
Haley Hatcher 00:07
Hi. Hi. So happy to be here.
Jackie Leonard 00:09
Yeah, it's it's a little trippy doing this, because I'm like, you're always listening to the episodes. But I haven't like talked to you as a guest yet so. Right, exactly. Can you introduce yourself for those listening before we jump in?
Haley Hatcher 00:24
Yeah, my name is Haley, I am the owner of heart centered podcasting. That's how I know Jackie, she is a client of mine. And we launched mother scope together. And I'm still managing her podcast week to week. So I loved season two so much. I think it's been really engaging for me, even as I listened through. So I'm so excited to chat today about a common love.
Jackie Leonard 00:46
Yeah, and I feel like your compliment is, I don't wanna say more special than other listeners, but because you have to listen and write about it and all that I've really taken to heart. How excited you have been for the season, and that you wanted to jump on and be a guest today is so special. Yeah. And
Haley Hatcher 01:03
I've been sharing it with like, all of my friends, too. I mean, season one was great. I'm not discounting it. I think like, season two, it just has so many different avenues for connection that has been really exciting to listen through. And then think of real time like, Oh, I know, so and so would love this episode. And then like getting to share that, you know,
Jackie Leonard 01:22
and it's it's a fun way to a more natural way to bond with people. A lot of the guests I had in season one I knew in some way, right? Read the writing a lot. So there was that natural connection there. But for people who are just like meeting for the first time, or even friends that you haven't talked with in a while, the easy way to bond is through like, Oh, yeah. Did you watch that? When did you think we don't have enough opportunities, especially as moms to be like, I watched this I want to talk about I have thoughts. And so
Haley Hatcher 01:51
yeah, yeah, I agree like going back. And like when I reconnect with friends, or even if I'm just sending like a weekly Vox to a friend, like so this is what I've watched this week. And this is what I've thought I know, you wanted to let me know what you think. And it's just, like you said, such an easy point to connect, and then have different, like tangential conversations from that.
Jackie Leonard 02:14
Totally. And it has been also an added layer of interest to be looking at more critically, the things we're watching and the things that maybe we grew up watching. And as you know, I like to start off with figuring out what's the thing we feel the most guilty about presently and letting that go so we can dive into the fun conversation. So yeah, definitely. Haley, what is something that you're feeling a little guilty of this week?
Haley Hatcher 02:45
Okay, I'm just gonna pause here for a second my fan is going on my laptop. Can you hear it?
Jackie Leonard 02:49
No, I do not. Okay, cool.
Haley Hatcher 02:52
I'll get that out. But okay, um, so something this week that I'm feeling really guilty about, as you know, I'm pregnant, and I am actually tomorrow going to be 33 weeks pregnant. So I'm super in that, like nesting phase, and just getting ready for the baby and making sure everything is here. But at the same time, I am still a mom to a toddler who she's not needy, but it's hard being an only child when you know, your mom is I feel like incapacitated half of the time, because I work during the day and I picked her up from school, and then I'm just like, exhausted. So I feel like I'm overcompensating because of the guilt, I feel that I haven't got to give her the attention that I usually do. So I'm trying to make up for it in a lot of different ways. Whether it's like, making sure her favorite snack is always on hand or buying her toy every single time I'm at the store, or Kpop, or whatever it is, and just like letting her know that she is loved. And I guess just trying to give her as much grace as I am giving myself because so much of our day to day is like already changing even though the baby's not here yet.
Jackie Leonard 04:05
That is a really hard season. I remember very vividly that 30 week mark really was a shift where I started to feel like I couldn't do as much as i know i He's used to my son, our firstborn. Really kind of tugs at our heart in that last few weeks of pregnancy. Yeah, and I Yeah. And they sense it, you know, and I think it does bring on a lot of guilt about like, things are going to change for them and they never had they didn't have a choice in the matter, you know. Exactly, exactly. But, you know, I mean, I know you know this but like for you to be aware of it and be so intentional and know that now and be trying to do what you can I feel like speaks to the kind of Mom You are so thank you hopefully Yeah, you know, sheds a little bit of guilt and
Haley Hatcher 04:52
yeah, you know, they say like a bad mom never worries about being a bad mom or whatever that thing is. So that's something that I heard When I was pregnant with Ava, my first and I've kind of just like hung on to that. And I have given that piece of advice to any other new moms that I meet along the way, because it's so true. Like, if you are worrying about something, then that means you are already a great mom.
Jackie Leonard 05:14
Right? And there's something about that 30 week mark at all, the pregnant people that I've interviewed have been about 30 weeks to do a podcast episode. So yeah, yeah, that space is very, very much one that that I remember a lot. And I also remember struggling with balancing like, Okay, I have to be like thinking about this baby coming. Yeah, and learn how to balance that because it, it's difficult because we've been giving so much of ourselves to the firstborn all this time. And then to wrap our head around this idea of, now I have to sort of there is there is space for more, I will tell you, but it feels really hard to imagine. So
Haley Hatcher 05:57
it's just kind of like, okay, this part is hard. So what the hell am I gonna do? Next baby's actually here, but we'll figure it out. I mean, we always do. That's why That's our job as a mom, right?
Jackie Leonard 06:07
Yep. Yep. Yeah. So for me the thing, and I feel like I've been talking about my son's school a bit lately, but something that I thought was kind of interesting is, you know, we have these beliefs about ourselves, or motherhood, or, you know, even like, you know, I feel like I am a feminist for whatever that defines, you know, that's a part of who I am. And I still find myself saying things or putting myself in situations where I don't respond the way I would expect to. And I dropped off my, I went to pick up my son that's at school the other day, and I love my son's teacher. But she made a comment about like, something that happened at school the previous day that she would have told me, but my husband picked them up. And so she didn't mention it. And after the fact, that was like, and I kind of was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. You know, of course. And I went home, and I was like, Wait a second, like, why am I? Why is, am I the one that needs to get the information? And why couldn't my husband get it? Like, he's just as capable? Right. And he should be, you know, involved in the information as well. And I think you know, that we have these assumptions. You know, the, my husband doesn't pick up my son as often because of his schedule, or different things like that. And but I was just surprised that myself that I didn't respond with oh, well, you know, you could tell him to there's no reason you can't tell him. Yeah, I assume that sometimes I assume like that. Oh, yeah, I would be the one to tell that information. And that's just not what I actually believe deep down. Yet we find ourselves sort of playing these presumed roles or taking on these, these, yes, this load that really isn't all ours all the time. So I
Haley Hatcher 07:57
think we're always going to when we're put in certain situations, we'd think like, oh, I would definitely react to this way. Or I would have no problem saying this, then you get there and you're just like, okay. It's definitely tough. Especially No, this episode isn't out yet. But on the Ozark episode, you talk about being really introverted. And I think like, as an introverted mom, because I definitely relate to that as well. Like, it's so much easier sometimes to just don't want to say, like, swallow it, but it's just more comfortable to do that, then. Because you don't you probably don't want to hurt the teachers feelings in that in that scenario, you didn't want her to think that she did wrong. You know what I mean? When really, like, you would have said it, it wouldn't have been a big deal.
Jackie Leonard 08:43
Right? It's 100%. And I bet she didn't even really mean it that way. And just but those little things that we say if we don't like clarify them, or, you know, make sure we understand what they meant and articulate what's, you know, our our family system or whatever. Yeah, these assumptions kind of become bigger things. And so, in watching these TV shows to and movies, we kind of we can be overly critical. And it's like, well, how would we handle this situation in real life? We may not have done what we think the other characters should be doing. Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I felt a little guilty about that. And like, Okay, well, like you said something, sometimes I lean into comfort, obviously, that's okay. But it's just something you know, that's that I took note of and wanted to share that. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So today, we're talking about the crown. And you you said it's one of your top shows before we hit record, and I appreciate being able to revisit the show with you because it's one that it took me a little while to watch because I remember people telling me at the time when it first came out, there was a lot of buzz that is a little slow, but it's a really like it's a fascinating story. And so I felt like I needed to be in a certain space to really give it my Tension. But I love period pieces I like, watch Downton Abbey. And Pride and Prejudice is one of my favorite movies. So I love kind of that era and that kind of lifestyle, you know. And it's an added layer that it's real life, and it's about the monarchy, that's still, you know, the same people are still present in the public eye. And yeah, there's just so much to say. And it's been especially interesting, looking at it, to see where motherhood kind of is referenced and how much it plays a role in this show. And every time I think it's not, I'm always surprised, and it shouldn't surprise me anymore, but that it's ever present. Always so many things we can talk about with related to the show, I'd love to hear kind of your relationship with the show and what you love so much about it.
Haley Hatcher 10:53
Yeah. I mean, kind of like you. It's just a part of me always loves period pieces, or like if we're talking about books, like historical fiction and things like that. And I like it, because I can really get lost in it. Like the thing I love about watching the crown is, you know, I have the TV playing. And then I always on my remote in hand, because I'm constantly pausing it, like look something up on Google and see, wait, is this actually true? And I think the crown is so interesting, because obviously, if you watch it, you get the sense of how buttoned up the monarchy is as a whole. And I think it's really important that they make that distinction because the queen is not human. At the core, like obviously, she is a human woman. But I think you really see this in like the coronation episode, where Elizabeth is constantly reminded, like, Hey, you are on the same level as God in this, you know what I mean? And so I think like, that it permeates throughout not only the whole, like the show as a whole, but the monarchy as a whole, because they're constantly in the show does a really good job of like balancing us wanting to connect with Elizabeth on like these very universal human themes, and then wondering why she just can't get there. And it's because she's not allowed to get there. And so I think that both actors Olivia Coleman and Claire Foy, do a really amazing job at showing, like just enough of themselves. And I think that's what keeps me really engaged, because I see the certain plot points, and I'm like, there is no way that she can be just the Queen, or prioritize being the queen in this situation. But she does it every day on time, and she doesn't so well. And I know a lot of it is like cinematography, because we can't know what is actually said. But there's a really great companion podcast to the show as well, I don't know if you've listened to that. But they do a lot of really great research and highlight the research that goes into the making of the episode. And so it's easy to trust, like, Okay, this is what has actually happened. And then like you said, just understanding and knowing that this is real life like these people are still alive today. I don't know. It's just, it really like blows my mind.
Jackie Leonard 13:21
Yeah, and I, I remember at the time when the show came out, thinking like, Well, I'm not really that interested in the Queen, like, I don't really know that I really care to hear a story. And especially in those first two seasons, when you see how she came into that position to begin with. And that shifts for her from being I mean, she was always a royal in regard and you know, of a certain aristocracy where she you know, what she was born into, but to see where she had to shift and assume this role in a very different way that wasn't really in their family design.
Haley Hatcher 14:02
Yeah, just knowing that was never meant for her.
Jackie Leonard 14:05
Yeah, and just how much that meant. She had to basically let go of herself to do this role. And you see, I mean, like you said, a lot of this stuff, we don't know a lot of stuff. The creators have had to take some liberties and assuming or piecing together some truths that they were able to find out about her. But you imagine based on the way it's represented on the show that even her own family has had a kind of a guarded version of her because she can't quite give herself to anybody because she isn't exactly a person she represents something.
Haley Hatcher 14:46
Yeah, exactly. And I love especially in season one and season two when we see the flashbacks of Margaret and Elizabeth when they are like young little girls and even the separate Share that they make then between Margaret and Elizabeth like not even learning the same things in school and things like that. And I feel like you see slowly like it was his personality start to become dulled down, and very just, like monotone. And it's just interesting, because I felt like, you know, even if she wanted to give that up, it was so ingrained in her already that she would never really be able to.
Jackie Leonard 15:29
Yeah, and how much that was instilled in her from a very early age. And, you know, I did say that, that wasn't something that was part of her path. But even the idea that it could be meant that they had to, like raise her a certain way.
Haley Hatcher 15:43
Yeah, and I think we see that Yeah, I think we see that and I'm sure we're gonna talk about it, but like, the way that she goes about her relationship with Charles, and we will get there.
Jackie Leonard 15:57
Well, and it's a very popular I mean, there's so many different stories that I've seen across you know, history of the, the it's usually men, but it's like the boy who is supposed to be king and the or, and who's a prince and then his brother, who's the younger one who won't be and the younger one is always able to be more fun and have a personality and the older one who's going to be king one day has to be more serious and composed. And I mean, I'm jumping ahead a bit, but you see with like Prince Charles or not Prince Charles, Prince, William and Harry, that was always kind of the way they were represented. In the media. It was like, Yeah, William was the responsible, very kind of serious one. And Harry was always kind of the fun one that people enjoyed. Because they had different roles to play.
Haley Hatcher 16:47
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's just an I think, too. I don't know. We'll edit that part out. But just go ahead. I was gonna lie on different tangent. But
Jackie Leonard 17:01
yeah, I'm curious Haley, what's kind of been your because you love this show so much. And maybe you have a relationship with this beforehand. But how have you felt about the royal family? In real life, like the most more present day more contemporary royal family? Like have you been felt? Have you followed some of the stuff that's gone on between, you know, Kate's, and her having her children and Megan Markel now, and all of that kind of drama around the royal family? How do you take that in?
Haley Hatcher 17:33
Yeah, I definitely keep up. I think, like, for me, it's easier just to say this is like strictly a guilty pleasure, because it doesn't affect me in the same way that maybe would affect me if I lived in England. But if you want to take for instance, you know, Megan, and Harry, like, I applaud them for that decision that they made, because I know, this is what they had to give up. These are all of the hoops that they had to jump through this as the support that they probably didn't get a and will never get. And then I'm just like, reminding myself too, that the monarchy today is not what it was, you know, even like 50 years ago, because I feel like today now the monarchy is more of just like a figurehead. And I could be wrong in that. But I don't know how much of the decision making is still available to the head of state, the queen. I don't think they call her that her state. But I don't know, like, what her influences now at the end of the day. And then just to like, I think that we see throughout the show, the monarchy really modernizing. And I think that it had to happen, but it also really might be the detriment to them. And I think, you know, that is something that was brought up to like, this will be the death of us, because when they are if you remember filming that show, to give the people of England like an inside look of what it's like to be a member of the royal family. And it really just backfired for them. And I think, you know, we see that today still, like, it's really hard to have sympathy for someone who has, you know, millions of dollars, maybe not in their bank account, but at their disposal that they can use to create, like the easiest life for them. And so it's definitely like a really complicated relationship. I would say it's kind of like the relationship I have with Kardashians. Like, obviously, I understand their influence and their privilege. And, but I will always open like an article from them that's like, Oh, Kim and Kanye are up to this or did you See the picture clearly uploaded to her Instagram. And I'm just like, I don't know why I care. But here I am reading it, you know?
Jackie Leonard 20:06
Yeah. And I like that you acknowledge that because the these families are a part of the culture. I was, as you were talking, I was thinking back to like, Princess Diana, I remember I remember the day that she, like, had her car accident and died because we were watching TV that evening as a family and it popped up on the TV. I remember like, there's moments throughout my life that the royal family has been a part of the culture and even up to recently with some of the stuff that has come up with Kate when she had her babies and Megan Markel, and she had hers that in the past would never have been talked about, but the way now that we have at least more awareness of certain things, were shining a light on motherhood and different social issues, because these people are the faces of it, you know? So it's in the same way that the Kardashians are in America and Amen. I mean, honestly, they're international. But yeah, we, the things that people write about them about often elicits us to think about our own lives, or our own thoughts about certain topics. And so they become kind of the way that we access it. And yeah, I always felt like kind of, you know, I don't know how to, I always kind of like scratch my head when people say they have no idea who these people are, because I'm like, really, like, I see it everywhere. And it's not that I only go looking for it, it's because I see them as very active parts of our culture, and they influence it, whether or not we want to admit it, right.
Haley Hatcher 21:42
100% I mean, the Kardashians were meeting with President Trump, you know, and so just like things like that, and it's, like, so crazy to think about that. 20 years ago, no one knew who they were. And here they are, like, being a crutch. And, like policy creation, it's just wild to think about.
Jackie Leonard 22:02
Yeah, and we can at least acknowledge that they're influencing it, even if we don't think you know, necessarily for the better. It is something we should be aware of, and with the royal family. What I found really interesting watching the crown, was seeing you know, that the Queen's uncle abdicated, he put away like he rejected the throne to marry an American. And then you see that cycle back to Harry later on down the line. And like made me think of like, you know, the generational traumas that we hear about and how if you don't heal, it's bound to repeat itself. And then here, I see like that exact thing happening. And yeah, it's really hard not to see that for somebody like Harry, who saw his mom die in, you know, a toxic environment and seeing it repeat itself with his wife. It so much of it makes sense. So much of it was like, obviously, he felt like that's what they both felt like that's what they needed to do to protect their family. And I appreciate a lot of the dialogue that happened as a result where, you know, there was that soundbite from Megan Markel, where she said that she was surviving, and not thriving or something like that. And that was really powerful for, you know, like you said, it's hard sometimes to relate with people that are in such places of privilege, but because she was speaking candidly to how she felt people can tap into that they know how, in early, postpartum, different forms it is, and to think about not having any support. Yeah, not having, you know, your support system around you.
Haley Hatcher 23:41
Yeah, and especially with Megan, like watching the Oprah interview, and knowing the past history of racism within the monarchy, especially because I am married to a black man. And so I have a black daughter, and I was so much easier for me to put myself in Megan shoes and kind of just feel the things that she was feeling about these people who are supposed to be her family, these people that are supposed to, like love her and her son unconditionally. And then those were the types of remarks that were being said, I'm coming from a very conservative family myself, it was just like, wow, like I, I get it. And I just know, like, That decision was so hard. And I don't know, if it's one that I could have ever personally made. Because you're I'm sure they weighed the pros and cons 10 million times before they did anything.
Jackie Leonard 24:35
Yeah, and I'm sure it was a lot harder than it looks right. And there were a lot other conversations happening and arguments happening that we'll never hear or know about. And, and it was it was so obvious how much different she was treated than, you know, you would imagine a white British woman would be treated in that situation and It was relentless. So I mean, I know people have all sorts of opinions about it. And like you said, We're Americans. So there's, we have were removed from kind of some of that. But yeah, I appreciated a lot of the conversations happening about like needing to escape toxic situations, even if it's families. And yeah, and having some understanding for that I think people really struggle with imagining how that could be possible.
Haley Hatcher 25:25
Yeah. But then, like you said before, just like remembering the influence, because I think that created so many different conversations, whether it was here or in England, where people are now talking about different forms of abuse, and what that can look like. And I think it just probably opened up a lot of doors that previously were probably hammered, shut very tightly. So we have to, I mean, be positive about that aspect of it.
Jackie Leonard 25:58
And I have to wonder if a show like The Crown almost opened up the opportunity for them to be more accepted in their decision, because we were saying some of the the, I mean, it's fictional. And people have pointed that out time and again, but there is some truth to the way that the family is represented, I think the people who created the show did a really good job of, you know, trying to make it something that is cinematic and enjoyable. But also following, you know, some things that are known, well known about the royal family and putting it out there so people could see. And one of the things is that they don't complain publicly. They don't, you know, they have to follow order and rules. And these are rules that have been around for centuries. So imagine being a part of a family system or a business really, that is not willing to, you know, grow with the times is I mean, yeah. And you can imagine how hard it would be to try to live up to that. Yeah. Especially if you're an outsider coming in. So I think people could relate to that on a different level, because they were able to watch it. And
Haley Hatcher 27:07
yeah, yeah, it was interesting, you brought that up, because I remember reading like a news article about how a lot of the hatred towards Camilla had died down. And then when season four of the crown came out, like that flared up, again, so much, much to the point where I actually think there was like an official statement from the royal family. And I'm just like, wow, from one from one show. And that has literally like the world up in arms. And I just think that goes to show the impact of how deeply we connect with characters. And like, we do not want any harm done to them. Because when it is done, we take that as a very personal offense.
Jackie Leonard 27:53
Yeah. And I, I, you mentioned when you were watching it, and you'd pause it regularly, and you know, read up on the history, and I remember when I was watching, especially the most recent season, going onto Twitter, and just seeing all of the stuff people would say about Charles, his character. And Camilla, like you said, and the deep love that people still have for tea, Diana, and having that kind of re brought up again, seeing all of that you're right, like kind of some time and some like silence on the issue, made people kind of accept Camilla again, and not really bring up the stuff with Charles. And then we're right back in with
Haley Hatcher 28:35
the show. It's just interesting, because Diana was by by no means perfect, like as a mother as a spouse. And I wonder like, Okay, did her death memorialize her in a way? And? I mean, it did. It does that for everyone, you know, but it just makes me really curious. Like, what would the landscape look like if she was still alive today?
Jackie Leonard 28:58
Yeah, and that is very true about people who die young. Right, is when they're preserved in a way and and I, but I think I think the thing that people really resonated with about Diana was like her vulnerability, and it was something that was not available to the royal family, people who didn't see that side of royalty up until she came along. And so there was something that people really connected with, even if it wasn't all that she was, or really who she was. People tapped into that in a way that became what she represented. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So, we're gonna kind of bounce around. There are a few episodes that we kind of latched on to and we thought about what we wanted to unpack a little bit about the show. And in the meeting in the first season. I know when I was kind of skimming through something I noticed that I found interesting was the converse sessions that they were having around Prince Charles, which we brought up at one point. And the way that the Queen sort of defends him or is kind of worried about him versus her husband, Prince Philip responds to him. And so we see kind of very traditional female male interactions with the sun, where Phillip is very much like, You got to toughen up, he talks about him being a girl and too soft and sensitive. And the Queen's feeling defensive as that and tries to protect him. There's so many layers to it, because we know that Charles is the next in line for the throne. So you feel like the queen sort of probably puts herself in a situation feels for him because she knows what's to come for him. And then on Phillip side, you see kind of, we've seen some things about his own family trauma that could influence the way he is with his son. But something you sent me an article and we'll link it in the show notes. And I found it really interesting where it talked about how the queen is kind of whenever motherhood comes up with her whenever she talks about her children, she's sort of portrayed with this like rose colored lens. Yeah. So what are your thoughts kind of on on the way that they treat Charles and especially in those early years?
Haley Hatcher 31:25
Yeah, actually got like a screengrab of a quote that I think you're talking about from the article. And it says, For all the emphasis on family, we don't actually see many scenes of Elizabeth being a mother, perhaps the show is loath to dig into her weaknesses. And one powerful moment earlier in the season, Philip observes that Charles isn't a child to Elizabeth. He's also the crown, a living embodiment of who will replace her supersede her loving a child who through no fault of her own represents your own death cannot be easy. And so I think, I think about like my own maternal instinct, especially when it's your firstborn. And I'm just wondering how she made that separation from, yes, this is my firstborn, but this is also the person who's going to take over when I die, and this is the person who I will be compared to for the next, you know, almost century. And I just think, like, I don't know how she separates the two in her mind, because I find it so hard to not love my daughter unconditionally. And then thinking, I have to put I would have to put bounds on that love, and not be able to show it how I want to like it just, it breaks my heart for Elizabeth as a mother. And as a woman.
Jackie Leonard 32:56
Yeah, it makes me think also about how the pressure she almost has to put on or would net like, if she is separating it put on her son, Charles, because he's the one that's going to carry on the legacy, the legacy that I mean, she's been Queen for many years. I don't know that number, but like, a lot of years, so she's put in so much of our life and our work into, you know, having the monarchy view this way, caring for her, her nation the way that she sees she's doing, and to hand it off to him. I can imagine. Yeah, she must be like worried. So you would put like this pressure on your child? Yeah. And I just I don't even know what that dynamic would look like, let alone the distance that she has, because she is so committed to so many other things.
Haley Hatcher 33:46
Yeah. And the trauma that he might carry from not being loved in that way that feels unconditional. And I think, you know, we saw that when especially he went to Wales, and spent I think it was like three months or something over there. And he did his speech and everything. And he came home after his tour. And he just wanted his mom to greet him to say that she was proud of him. And she didn't do that. And when he asked her why she was like, why would I it's your job. And so I think, you know, a lot of those moments are probably a lot of the moments in his life where he shines, or he's done something well, that's just what is expected of expected of him. And so why should Elizabeth I guess, like prop him up? And that's just tough.
Jackie Leonard 34:44
Yeah, and you know, and, obviously, I mean, it goes without saying this isn't for anybody who uses who, you know, depends on caretakers to help with their kids when they work and all that but I'm saying, we talk a lot about the invisible labor that goes into motherhood. Did the bathing, the changing the cleaning and all those things. And because of her role they had, I mean, and especially for that time, they had people that would care for the children. And that was their job. And they did all of that, quote, unquote, dirty work. And a lot of times it's through that work that we bond with our children, that they connect with us. And so she was not able to do that. It was not something that she would do with her position, and also for the time. Yeah, the generation that she can't comes from, is naturally very removed from that caring and all that stuff. I mean, that's why we have discovered a lot of the problems as a result. So it's not just the royal family, I think that experienced some distance with that kind of connection with parents.
Haley Hatcher 35:46
And I think we saw that on that episode favorites were for Philip, it's so much easier for him to say who his favorite kid is. And for Elizabeth, it's not easy, because I feel like Philip probably had more of those bonding opportunities, because he's not held to the same standard that Elizabeth is. And so when she is asked that question, not only can she not give an answer, but she kind of makes it her mission within that episode to visit each of her kids and sit down with him one on one, to try to figure this out. Like who is my favorite, and we see even that act, like failing for her because especially I think with Anne, she's listening to Anne, who is like going through all these problems and going through, you know, heartbreak and going through, being really jealous of Diana, and I feel like Elizabeth just doesn't hear any of that. And the advice that she gives us so dumb, and like unneeded. And it just like doesn't work. And I think that's because she cannot pick up on the cues of how her daughter is really feeling because she probably was not there for a lot of those times when she was younger when she could learn, okay, I know my daughter makes this face when she's upset, or I know this is the cry that she has when she needs to just be held, you know, like little things like that. And so she's just like, grasping for straws. And it's sad, because it like portrays her kids as these strangers to her. And it's just like little cuts that happen over time now.
Jackie Leonard 37:29
Yeah. And that that episode, favorites is so dynamic, because you really see her the unnatural way she's trying to like connect with her children. And she can and it reminds me of that whole, you know that saying about you know, you have to care for yourself or know yourself before you can really connect with other people. And you see the I mean, she's not able to really be with her own feelings and emotions. Yeah. And so how would she be able to connect that way with her kids? And she like has to get like a little report from her, you know, her her people about each children, each child, what are they up to? I want to connect with them and I'm gonna go say hi to them. And she feels like these drop ins are a way that she can kind of make herself feel better about having insecurities about being a mom and and it almost, you know, she realizes that. Yeah, that like it's like, oh, my kids are a mess right now. This is why I don't connect I can't handle Yeah.
Haley Hatcher 38:24
And I think it's really interesting because one of the articles brought it up to which I'm happy they did it's post Aberfan. And that is one of my favorite episodes of the whole series. And for those who don't watch the show, or don't know the history, there was like a pretty famous. It was like a huge mudslide, essentially and in Aberfan, and it took out a whole school killed dozens of children. And it was just like a really huge horrific thing that happened and the queen, she doesn't even go and visit right away. Philip is the one who goes and visits and he gets there. And he's like, Yeah, you you need to come here. Like it's worse than what we think it is. So she goes there. And she's literally talking to these parents who have just lost their children. And she has to fake cry. And I just think you know, that, to me is crazy. Because I watch TV show. I'll read the book now. I'm tearing up the littlest thing, you know, and for her to see this devastation in real life. I think that was the probably like, the first of many little wake up calls that she had where she realized this relationship that I have with my children is lacking. And that's probably where a lot of her guilt started, I think.
Jackie Leonard 39:51
Yeah, and I feel like and we'll see how she's represented in later seasons, but I feel like it later on in her life. She started to They kind of soften up a little bit, at least from what I've heard, like, I've heard sound bites from like her grandkids and different things like that about her. And it sounds like, in private at least or now as she's getting older, she's trying to lean more into, like, connecting with people through emotions, because really, that's the way that she's going to be able to connect with her people because they are so removed. situationally. But But yeah, I remember that saying being so like, eye opening as to like, it's sad. It's sad that this person, I mean, she is a human being is has had to have so much of her humanity stripped away that she can't even connect in these kinds of situations.
Haley Hatcher 40:49
And it's crazy, because I feel like outside of the monarchy, if this was like a regular person, and they were so far removed from their own families, or they had like this inability to feel emotions, like they would really be labeled as like a psychopath, or a narcissist, at the very least. But for the queen, that's what is expected of her. And I don't know, I just can't imagine having to compartmentalize to such a degree. It's like, just to the point where I'm like, I guess I can only applaud her because she does it
Jackie Leonard 41:28
so well. Yeah, exactly. And she's clearly you know, somebody that is beloved, in the UK, and respected. And so she has lived her role, at least, you know, for what people expected of her. And I find that really interesting. And it's also an added layer of intrigue that she's a woman, because, you know, traditionally you would expect it to be a king. And so I can imagine maybe she felt like she really had to overcompensate in a lot of ways because she was a woman in this world. Yeah, in the position she was.
Haley Hatcher 42:07
And I think if we're looking at just like, womanhood, it's hard not to look at her marriage as well. And I love that you sent me the episode. Mystery, man. I can't remember what season that was the second season. Right? It was a 10 I think. Yeah. And that's after the Profumo scandal. Yeah. And a lot of people are implying that Philip has cheated on her. And there's this hard evidence and then she finds the photograph of the other woman and Philips belongings when she's like packing for him. And then I love when she finally confronts him because this is these episodes are wrong, you're feeling the tension the whole hour, right? And towards the end of the episode, she finally confronts him and Philip is says something along the lines of he goes, the whole ghastly, relentless pneus of it all the fact that it never stops any minute, but but is it not possible that there are some of us there for you, no matter what come what may. And she just responds, if only and I feel like, like, that shattered me because I feel like as women, and even like, as mothers too, we experience so many things that can be so isolating, whether it's something within our relationship where Elizabeth probably didn't want to confide in her sister or the Queen Mother about Philips infidelity, because it's embarrassing. And then things with like our children where maybe not for the queen, but for regular everyday women like me and you that invisible labor and all the seasons that we go through as raising kids, it can feel lonely, even if you're married, even if you know your partner supports you in these ways. And there are days where you're like, if only one person in this world had my back and supported me, my life would be so much easier. And so I just think like those two words encapsulated. That feeling that so many women can see all on a pretty regular basis.
Jackie Leonard 44:17
Well, I think you really hit kind of the nail on the head there with the ways that the Queen is expected to perform mirrors a lot of like the traditional expectations of motherhood really, this idea that you're not that you're like more of a figure than a person and that your emotions need to be kind of put on the backburner because you are responsible for your children. And don't complain and just do what you're supposed to do and do your job and, you know, don't stray too far from the norm and all these things we have. I mean, there have been things that have been messaged to us as women as mothers, and so we can relate so that on a deep level, even though we can't like you said like imagine being so compartmentalized like she is where she has to completely close off herself to her own children. But, but there are similar similarities there that I think we help us connect to her as a character even though she's so different one from what you would expect the person to do.
Haley Hatcher 45:21
Yeah, most definitely. And I think it's like those little moments where her composure cracks a little bit that keep us and allow us to continue to be in love with her. And like, be reminded that oh, okay, actually, yeah, sure, she's the queen. But she's just like that, as you know,
Jackie Leonard 45:38
that episode, the favorites is, is an especially interesting one with related related to motherhood because in that fourth in the fourth season, the most recent season, the Prime Minister, I believe the title is Margaret Thatcher. So you have two women in power that are, we see are very different in their approaches. They also have very different roles, but they are leaders who have to come together and talk and meet, and Margaret Thatcher's son goes missing. And you see how she responds. And the Queen kind of starts to think about who her favorite child is, as a result, because Margaret Thatcher says that her that son is her favorite. And in reading about that episode, I was reminded of how it shows us throughout the series, that season, but also that episode, how Margaret Thatcher approaches motherhood, and how the Queen approaches motherhood. And Thatcher, his approach was very much that she, she like, she allowed time. Yeah, she was very hands on she and she and you saw how that kind of gotten away. Like she couldn't really do her job. Well, because she was so consumed by being involved with her kids. And then on the flip side, you see the Queen who's very removed. And it kind of shows us how these women in powerful positions really struggled and couldn't find a good harmony with mothering. And being in those positions. I thought that was interesting.
Haley Hatcher 47:19
Yeah, but I think one of the articles brought it up too. And I think this is like still very true. That even though they took such different approaches, where Margaret Thatcher was very hands on emotionally available, wanting to always be there for dinner, etc, etc. And the Queen was just completely opposite. They still have these kids that turned out to be not so great kids. And I think we see that today where it doesn't matter if you bottle feed or breastfeed, or if you make all your baby's food or you buy it prepackaged at a store or like if you allow screen time or not, whatever it is, like all of these little tiny divisions that we try to create within motherhood, like at the end of the day, your kid is going to do what they want to do. And so I feel like that they kind of like drew that connection because I just feel like as moms, all we can do is like try our best and then hope for the best.
Jackie Leonard 48:12
Right? And and you see that almost like they're overcorrecting in different ways. Like she overcorrecting by trying to like be like, I have to be there, it's important that I do all these things. And she's, you know, missing kind of what they really need. Like she has a daughter who's basically like, mom, like you don't give me attention. And instead of being like, you're right, like, Let me listen to you. She's kind of like, well, that's because you're boring. Yeah. And then the queen, you know, is overcorrecting in the sense where she's kind of like, well, this is my role, like, I have to be this way. Sorry, I can't be there for you. And, and completely removed from the situation. So, you know, I think we see the different, like the bar degrees and really like it anywhere in the middle. You have so much room. And yeah, it's quite interesting, too. But I really liked what you say about that, where it's like, on some level, we do feel like we can control so much. And really, they just have a small, like small part. Yeah, their lives. I mean, it's a very important part. But, you know, it's less about what we can do and more about helping them grow into I agree their own selves.
Haley Hatcher 49:25
Yeah, we just need to be there for them at the end of the day, instead of always constantly trying to fix things or make things better, or tell them what they should do. And I've seen that now like my daughter's four. And I feel like this is like when their personalities start to really come out. And you know, she's starting school and so so much of me has had to let go even though she's so young and just like, let her explore let her feel everything and then see how she reacts to it and then use that as like my own cues.
Jackie Leonard 49:57
Yeah, it's so true and They see that that fix it mentality that probably helps them do well in their professions doesn't necessarily translate to mothering. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is all about patience, and listening and stepping back and like taking it in and not being reactive. Right. And yeah, I can imagine those are very different skill sets than what they have had to
Haley Hatcher 50:23
take. Yeah. And I wonder for Elizabeth, like, I think one of the last things that I definitely want to touch on is just like, I wonder, and those things like patience and being present and letting go, she can't connect with because she wasn't allowed to do that during birth, because that's where you first have to really let go and let God right. So, you know, essentially, during those Twilight bursts, they are given the anesthetic and knocked out, as you mentioned, not completely knocked out, she's in and out, and then they just pull the baby out with forceps, and then you wake up, your baby is across the room in the bassinet. And I feel like from then on, you have the separation, like the baby is just this ornamental item that's in the room. And then she goes on as business as usual. Like literally, she gives birth, Margaret comes in doesn't even acknowledge the baby. I think she asked what the baby's name is. And then she's like, Okay, can I go to the papers now and announce my engagement to Anthony. And then it's just like, hello, like your, your sister just had a baby. But that, like it was such a small subplot of the episode. And that makes me think it's probably such a small subplot in life, too.
Jackie Leonard 51:44
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that whole Twilight birth scene, because I had forgotten that it was even on the show, right? Because you said it just kind of happens. And then she's back to business as usual. And that was that was kind of the norm. I believe, at least for people that were of like higher economic status to do these Twilight bursts. And yeah, they're essentially unconscious. They're in and out, like you said, and very removed from the birthing process. And I can just imagine how disconnected Yeah, you would naturally feel and how that would influence especially with what we've learned since about things like those first few hours after birth, how important it is to like, bond you know, skin to skin all that that that people are still starting to adopt more even like in hospital settings with the even now with the with the the other parents so that they can fall into it. But those are all things that we've learned is like, scientifically important, and then to think about how removed
Haley Hatcher 52:40
Yeah, the birth Phillip literally wasn't even there. He learned of the birth via the radio and the air show. You know, like, that's, that's so wild to me.
Jackie Leonard 52:50
Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. That really kind of sets the tone for what motherhood is for her and, and how that makes so much of the relationships that follow. Yeah, a lot more sense. Um, anything else you wanted to touch on before we wind down?
Haley Hatcher 53:08
Um, I think just one thing from that mystery man episode as well, like the last scene of the episode, and this is also when I don't remember the baby that was born in that episode, because we watched two of them are babies are born. But there's the big family portrait. And you see the scene starts out where it's just centered on Elizabeth holding her baby. And she is very, like, non emotional, just sitting there with half smile on her face looking like she's thinking of a million other things. And then as the camera starts to pan out, you see like the chaos around her and, you know, her family yelling at each other, the kids going wild and running around and whatever it is, and then I just feel like that is such a good metaphor for probably how she feels on a daily basis where like everyone around her gets to feel these things gets to be emotional, but at the end of the day, like she cannot because she is in the center. And she is not only the glue for her family, but literally the glue for the entire nation. And so I just thought that was a really great way to I think they actually ended the season not just episode but ended the season as a whole and just made me feel bad for her.
Jackie Leonard 54:31
Yeah, and you're you are right, because you see even you know, in the in real time, how with all the chaos of what goes on with the different family members. She's the one that has to like, not be newsworthy, like, yeah, everything around her can be chaotic and messy, but her responses the way she reacts to it is is what has to be controlled or she has to hide and go away. She can't have that be part of her image. Ah, yeah, exactly. And it must be really frustrating for her. I mean, I'm sure she's not without consequence, right. I'm not saying she's this, you know, innocent person and all of this, but so much of who people think she is, is because of what they see around her to.
Haley Hatcher 55:17
Truly Yeah. And then think about that. Because, you know,
Jackie Leonard 55:20
from her sister to her uncle and all these different people in her family, and later, her kids and grandkids, I mean, they have impacted the way people look at the royal family. And she can't control that. Really.
Haley Hatcher 55:31
Yeah, that's a very good point.
Jackie Leonard 55:33
Yeah. So I mean, there's so many different and you know, the next season is coming out, I think, toward the end of this year, which will be even more interesting, because it gets closer and closer to the present. It'll be interesting to see how the later versions of the Queen are played out. And, and all of that. I was inspired by the latest season, the fourth season. And the idea that Margaret Thatcher and the Queen were kind of put together to be like the Thatcher is like a foil to the Queen. And so I want to play a little game with you. Where you're gonna tell me if you think the quotes that I read is coming from Margaret Thatcher, or if it's coming from the Queen, and this isn't from the show. It's from real life. But finds I found these interesting, so I'd love to see if you can see which them. Are you ready? Yep. Okay, so the first one is, motherhood is the only job that matters. Margaret Thatcher. That was actually the queen. No way. Same person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she says she said that. The next one is, any woman who understands the problems of running a home will be nearer to understanding the problems of running a country?
Haley Hatcher 56:56
That sure that is correct.
Jackie Leonard 57:01
The fact is that women have children and this mother child bond is the greatest bond in the world. It's far better to make something of it than try to act as if you never had it.
Haley Hatcher 57:15
Want to say Thatcher again? That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 57:20
Let's see next. Of course, family doesn't necessarily mean blood red relatives, but often a description of community, organization or nation.
Haley Hatcher 57:31
That's going to be declined, right? That's yeah. All right. And last
Jackie Leonard 57:34
one, often a child's helplessness and vulnerability, bring out the best in us. batterer. That was the queen.
Haley Hatcher 57:44
That's like, so surprising because of her warming, or I guess not warming to her own children's vulnerability.
Jackie Leonard 57:52
Well, right. But we also we also maybe can acknowledge or see that maybe she's not very self aware. Yeah, what she's actually doing. Yeah. She may be not speaking for herself. She's speaking and trying to kind of imagine what other people want to hear. And so yeah, I thought that was interesting that yeah, he was so kind of nurturing in her quotes when we don't really I think, too,
Haley Hatcher 58:17
like, I would love to know what the context of these pods because were they in a speech that was written for her, you know,
Jackie Leonard 58:25
right, probably, yeah. And how often does she go off, you know, off off the script, right. Yeah, that we know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that was fun. And I really enjoyed talking about this show, especially from somebody who who knows so much and has learned all the history, you're motivating me to read about it. Because even some of the episodes that we watched, I read a little bit about it. And I was like, Oh, they kind of changed the timeline to have more emotional reactions. And yeah, interesting. Before we go, can we, let's put our heads together. And I'm curious to see what you think about whether the crown is a show is a mom advocate, if it's what you would call like a guilty pleasure, where it's a mix of some good representations of motherhood and some problematic ones or if you would call it sort of like a mom guilt. Show if in that when it references motherhood, it's depicted in a way that maybe makes us feel worse about ourselves as moms or
Haley Hatcher 59:26
Yeah. I think honestly, it's guilty pleasure. And the way I see that is not necessarily it doesn't always put motherhood in a good light. But it does two things. It makes me realize, one, the mother I want to be and to me, it makes me grateful for the relationship that I have with my daughter and the relationship that I have with my own mom. And so I think, like on that point, It does a really good job of showing motherhood in a better light.
Jackie Leonard 1:00:08
Yeah, I, I appreciate, I would agree, I would say it's kind of middle of the road. I think the fact that they showed the Twilight births to give people some context that they showed the I think, for her last birth, she did choose to have a traditional birth. And you know, that they made that effort to show that tells you that they're like conscious of how they want to represent motherhood. And I think they, it's always a good thing when you show motherhood in a complex way. And so I appreciate that. And I think there's room there was room where they could have shown some more scenes where she didn't look like the mom who wants to be there, but it's too busy. I think some of it she might not have been that, that good of that good of a mother, she might have been a more critical, problematic mom, in real life, and we'll never know. Right? And and they didn't really try to get creative there. And they made Philip kind of the one that was like, the hard parents and the not very compassionate parent. But I wonder, yeah, she had those moments as well. So I was wanting for that in that way. But I think they, they they did make an attempt. And I appreciate that. So
Haley Hatcher 1:01:24
I think it'll probably like for the people who watch the show, especially those that live in England and have like a more personal connection to her. Probably helped to put her in a better light because it was able to shed more understanding on why she acted the way she does or reacted the way she did in certain situations.
Jackie Leonard 1:01:45
Yeah, totally. Well, thank you so much for coming on here, Haley. And before we go, can you share how people can connect with you after listening to this episode?
Haley Hatcher 1:01:57
Yeah, definitely. I am pretty active only on Instagram. And you can find me there at heart centered podcasting.com. And if you want to launch your own podcast, start talking about these juicy things like Jackie does, then let me know I have openings up after I returned from maternity leave. And I'd love to support you. Yeah. And
Jackie Leonard 1:02:19
I love supporting mom businesses. And I will say that last she said, if you're launching a podcast, I've recommended her to a few people already that are like, how did you do this? And I'm like, well, Haley will basically help walk you through everything you need to do to get it off the ground, which is the hardest part. And so I couldn't recommend Haley enough. And all of her information will be linked in the show notes. Thanks to Haley
Haley Hatcher 1:02:46
when we were doing this episode of federal refund, and
Jackie Leonard 1:02:49
best of luck with everything I know we'll still be in touch but I just want to say with the rest of your pregnancy and as you become a mom to two.
Haley Hatcher 1:02:59
Thank you, Jackie. Thank you. I'll definitely be looking to you for some advice.