Breaking the Mom Character Mold on This is Us with Jill Yancey
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Today’s episode is a conversation with Jill Yancey about the NBC show This is Us (created by Dan Fogelman). This talk helped me realize how much I truly do enjoy this show, even if I have been critical of it in the past. Jill and I are chatting about the role of Rebecca as the matriarch of the Pearson family. We explore how her relationships with each of her children have changed overtime and even reference a few specific scenes from the show that impacted us the most.
I also share some exciting details about Motherscope’s upcoming Writers’ Club membership and how you can join!
TOPICS DISCUSSED
The impact of talking about shows or fictional characters to understand our own identities
The one This is Us character that Jill has been most drawn to throughout all of the seasons
What makes Rebecca such a powerful matriarch in the Pearson family and how she’s different than the traditional mom character
The natural ebb and flow that we experience in our relationships with each of our children
The importance of having someone you can trust and vent to about motherhood
How the most recent season of This is Us depicts the invisible labor of every mom
How the show might be different if it was written and directed by women instead of men
Why Jackie and Jill believe that This is Us gets the “Mom Advocate” stamp
RESOURCES MENTIONED
WRITING PROMPT
How would you want your children to remember you as a person and as their mother?
GUEST BIO
As full-time mother to four kids, a published writer, and Community Manager for Tell(h)er Co, JILL YANCEY has learned to combine passion with parenthood. Most early mornings or late nights, she can be found writing in the fleeting quiet of her crowded-but-joyful South Carolina, USA home.
Her first novel, a careful examination of the mother-daughter relationships that have always captured her curiosity, is currently in production. She invites you to subscribe to Dear Writer, a monthly love letter to her fellow writers, and join in her #dailymemoir practice on Instagram @jillwritesabook
CONNECT WITH JILL
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Jackie Leonard 00:03
Hi, Jill, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to talking about this is us with you today, just because it's been a show that is ending its run this year. And it's, it's really kind of building up a lot of momentum and tying up a lot of these storylines of so many characters. So for those of you who have been watching along, like we have, I think this will be an especially rewarding episode to listen to. And for those who haven't watched the show, yet, I strongly feel like you're gonna want to our conversation. But before we get into that, can you share a little bit about yourself? For those listening?
Jill Yancey 00:43
Yes, so obviously, I'm a big this is us fan. I've watched it episode by episode from the beginning. I am a writer, I am the community manager of teller CO, which is a writing community. I am a mom of four. And we just recently moved to South Carolina. So I used to say I was a Pacific Northwest girl, I still am. But now I am in the south. So that's kind of Yeah. Oh, and I'm writing I'm writing a book about a mother daughter relationship. So that's kind of what it's all about me.
Jackie Leonard 01:20
Awesome. Thank you. And I definitely feel that we were talking earlier about going having big moves we both have, and I still call myself a Southern California person, even though I'm now in the Pacific Northwest. So it's like, yeah, slowly shedding that. But I think, you know, that's always part of who we are. And for sure, not to, you know, take a turn. But the show this is us really does kind of have like, locations really tell a story as well. Or their own characters in a way. Yeah, horse? Sure. Yeah. Home is a very big, like, kind of core elements of the show. So yeah, see why that connects to you is like you're writing this story about Mother Daughter relationships. And then just what makes a home?
Jill Yancey 02:05
Yeah, what location is is like a huge part of, of all of that. And like I was thinking to I lived in Texas for a part, just my high school years. And we would hear that was the first time I'd ever heard cicadas. And now we hear them here. And I was thinking, Oh, this will be that sound will be home to my children like that. And that's I thought that with the show when they're like in LA versus in Pittsburgh versus I don't even know what the other places they've lived San Francisco, you know, it's, it's, it definitely plays a part for
Jackie Leonard 02:39
sure. And that cabin I was thinking of and how much that represents for their family. But But yeah, I just got inspired to bring that up as well. Sure. So we're going to share what we're feeling guilty of this week in honor of trying to combat the mom guilt that so many of us are struggling with.
Jill Yancey 03:02
Okay, you are me first.
Jackie Leonard 03:04
Um, I'm spacing. So do your you know what you were going to talk about? And then all I do?
Jill Yancey 03:08
I do I so I like I always say I'm like a guilty soul. I feel guilty so easily and so much of the time. So it's like something I'm working on. But one thing I've been feeling guilty about, honestly, for so long is that I have a temper. And I like people out in the world wouldn't see it. Spent they are who see it. And I struggle yelling at my kids. And I don't really believe in that as like a philosophy as a pet. I don't think intellectually I don't think that's like how it should be done. But I struggle big time. And so we've had a couple of our kids in counseling, and not because of that, maybe because problems probably all the reasons but we've had one and I kind of mentioned to the counselor like so I think you might want to talk to my kid about our relationship because I'm the one that like teaches him about shame and about, you know, you don't shame people and this and that, but I'm also the one like doing half that stuff to him. And I think that's got to be confusing. So I felt really ashamed and like guilty about that. And then they have their first like session. And he was like, yeah, she said, when you say this, like that's bullying, and I was like, oh, but it was true. It was true. And that is what I want him to learn and understand that this is a me issue, not a him issue. Um, so that first week, I felt really guilty but after since then, I've been yelling way less, and I feel less guilty. So, I mean, I'm feeling a little bit better about that. But it's kind of it's humbling to have somebody else kind of take a peek in.
Jackie Leonard 04:55
Right I mean, it's, it's definitely a very vulnerable and then also just like to hear, you know, something that you might observe in someone else, you know about you and your parenting. I mean, I imagine that so hard. And we're gonna talk later about a scene from the show that kind of on a more, you know, extreme extent, kind of a similar moment. And that's why I think it's so nice to talk about shows in a way or like, you know, fictional characters, because we can kind of see those things reflected back to us and identify in a way that maybe if we don't feel comfortable sharing this in a conversation with, you know, your friends or family, you're still able to tap into that. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And so as you were talking, it really reminded me of something, I was gonna say something else. And I was like, you know, what, I had this moment yesterday, and I do feel guilty about it. So I'm going to share, share away. So I have a four and a half year old son. And we also have, like a one, almost one and a half year old daughter, and, you know, kind of I don't know if this is traditional dynamics in a lot of families or what, but I just feel like I'm often more like, sensitive to my son's feelings. I don't know if like, the word is, like, harder on or easier on. But like, for me, I feel like my son and I, like, I understand some of his, like, kind of emotions and the the flow of it, and my husband has a harder time, like, being able to sit with it and like, not get like frazzled by it. And so he's like, always, it feels to me, like, he's harder on him than our daughter. And sometimes it's like, you know, I've learned through therapy, it's like, sometimes it's like we see ourselves in our kids. And so sometimes we're harder than that on them as a result, and the ones that maybe we don't as like intimately feel like we're reminded of ourselves, we kind of get go easier on sometimes I don't know, I can totally see that. Yeah. And so I realized last night, when, you know, my husband was getting a little, like, short tempered with my son, and not like, kind of understanding that he was just being a kid. In the moment, I felt very defensive. And so I found myself like saying, like, like, almost like protecting my son from my husband, like, kind of scolding my husband for saying that don't say that. He's fine, you know, whatever, and all this stuff. And I noticed that that's been something I've been doing a lot more lately, like, in the past, you know, a few weeks where it's like, as soon as my husband starts to kind of scold or say something to my son, I jump in, and like taking over and trying to, like, shut it down. And I realized, you know, that's not like, the dynamic that I want our son to see. I don't want to also like, like, kind of, be little or like, make my husband not feel like he can, you know, step in and say things. Because at the same time, it's like, I'm, I don't know what I'm doing. Either, I don't know, like, my way is 100% the right way. And I, and I think, you know, every once in a while, it's okay. But I realized that it was like something that I was doing a lot. And I know that that's something that I'm carrying through from my own, like, nuclear family that there was a dynamic, that dynamic was very present, in my own my own family growing up, and I didn't like it. And like, I noticed that I was repeating that same thing. And so, you know, my husband and I had in the late like, after our kids went to bed, we had a conversation about it. And I was like, you know, I noticed them doing this. You know, I don't want to, you know, but it would help, you know, it would help if you were like, you know, tried to be a little kinder in the language that you use with him when you're getting frustrated or step out or whatever. But I also don't want to do this myself. And so that was like a tough thing. I you know, I feel guilty about it. But I also feel like I was I was proud that I recognized.
Jill Yancey 08:54
I think that's really because I think we're just we're just gonna do things wrong. And so I think the more we can just at least recognize it, at least that it helps our kids, our people, our partner to at least have it right sized as well. But yeah, it's it's so hard, like parenting and the fact that your relationships with the people around you affect your kids, and it's just so much responsibility.
Jackie Leonard 09:25
I mean, I I've know, I've been aware of this from a very early age, and you have four kids that are older than mine, I believe all of the
Jill Yancey 09:31
years. My youngest is seven, my oldest is 11.
Jackie Leonard 09:35
Yeah. And so I just I realized I was surprised that how early on they pick up, you know, I mean, probably from like day one, right? But you know, just what they are able to understand, even before you realize it, you know what I mean? And so it's like, I'm just becoming even more and more aware as they get older. Like they're seeing this they're watching us they're internalizing it and a lot of times as kids you know They, they can't understand what certain attitudes or certain behaviors or certain words mean fully in the way that we as adults, so what he's interpreting things, my daughter's interpreting things in a way that I don't have full control over, except to make sure that I'm more mindful of it. And so right. It's something I have to like, let go of a little bit like I'm human, I can't be perfect also plays into it as well.
Jill Yancey 10:29
Yeah, for sure.
Jackie Leonard 10:31
Anyway, now that that's out of the way, back to this as us, yes. Can you share what your connection with the show is why you picked it as one that you wanted to talk about.
Jill Yancey 10:44
So I love it. So there's not a ton of shows that I watch, especially not regularly. This is one that me and my husband have always watched regularly. And I think it's just because it it hits every time. And I'll look over at my husband, and we both are crying, which is like eat and we kind of go in, I think this is typical after a couple of seasons of this disaster. Like, I'm not gonna cry this episode, I know what they want me to do. I'm not going to do it. But then like, every time that you know the music, and I'm like, oh, here we go. It's kind of cheesy. And then I'm like, Nope, it hits me again. And my husband too. And I think it's I think it's therapy. I really think that's why it's resonated with me so much, because it's talking about the same things. I mean, sometimes the same sort of elements will be going on in my little family and in our lives. And it hits on all these different levels, because it's a generational show. And so I can think about my relationship with my parents, or my relationship with Dane or my relationship with my kids or my siblings. It just it feels like therapy, I think a safer way to I guess shine a light on yourself and kind of what's going on in your life without needing to so I'm so focused on it, you know what I mean?
Jackie Leonard 12:03
Yeah, it's like a way to kind of transfer our own personal experiences, but we're still they're still so from there, we still connect with them so deeply. It's a real full bodied show, there's not a show, like so many different family dynamics. Just get like husband, wife and kids and you don't see outside family. Someone is more on like, you know, mother, daughter, Father, Son, but like this one is just like, the the immediate family and then their spouses and their kids and the grandparents. And it just builds out from there. And it's, yeah,
Jill Yancey 12:36
I think that's what I like about it so much. Because I tend to like like a quieter story, a story that's like about all the internal, you know, kind of workings, which it definitely has all of that. And then the way that they balance all those characters. They do it really, really well. And I think that I'm drawn to that I it was the same network. I don't think it was the same writers, but it was the same network that did parenthood, right. And that was one I loved. So then still
Jackie Leonard 13:07
haven't watched. So I'm curious to see how I feel about that one. I've seen an episode or two, but not like an order. And so I was like, I don't know what's going on. But
Jill Yancey 13:15
I think you'll like it if you like this. But that was that was another reason why I was drawn to the show, because I knew I loved that. And I think I thought the writers were the same. And so that was my initial pulling him. But there's a lot of similarities between the two.
Jackie Leonard 13:30
I wouldn't be surprised if because it's not too long since that show that there might be some like, maybe not like the main people that work on the show, but maybe some like, you know, like people in the writers room, maybe some like produce some people that are still kind of connected to that. But yeah, it Yeah, it it, it's out we'll get into kind of the the, the behind the scenes, the writing and stuff of the show later. But I, I've had things I've had like some issues with the show in the beginning where I felt like some of the character development was lacking. And I was like, frustrated by it. But it's like now that it's gone. seven seasons, I've seen kind of the shift where it's like there was so much attention on certain characters in the beginning, and then it kind of like, it spreads around, you know. And that's been a really neat thing to see it evolve that way.
Jill Yancey 14:20
For sure. I'm grateful they've had the time to be able to let it evolve because it's hard to do that all in that one first season.
Jackie Leonard 14:30
What is there one character that you feel? I know it's hard, but is there one character that you feel like you've been the most drawn to or engage with their story or identify with?
Jill Yancey 14:41
I this is such a hard one because I love pretty much all of it's kind of like who is your favorite on the cast of friends. You're like all of them. It's not the same without one of them. And I think because I can think of the ones that I'm like Beth is awesome. Jack is a dream. I think though it's Rebecca Mandy Morrison I think she's the one I relate with the most as a mom. Some of her own, like, missteps and hard things and kind of like the way she is as a mom, it I think I relate to a lot. Yeah. How about you?
Jackie Leonard 15:19
I mean, I probably am gonna say the same thing. I think when I first was watching, I really I love the actor Sterling K Brown. Like he was just like, so captivating to watch when his when his like, story was so like, just dynamic in the beginning and the first few seasons. And just as an actor, I really enjoyed him. And I've always loved Mandy more like there's just some soft spot after probably just because she's been around for most of our, like, formative years, and to see her like, excel and succeed just as an actress in this show, but then also just the character that she's brought to life has been been really? Yeah, just a pleasure to watch. Yeah, in so many different ways. Also, I feel like what's her name? Beth. Beth also calls this her like, her just arc and seeing all the things she's gone through, and just how solid she is. But then also showing moments where she's struggling. And, you know, she's just been also just not very, like, comedic relief, to be somebody coming into this family and just being like, look, this is the way it is, if you're an outsider, like you just kind of feel
Jill Yancey 16:36
she's, she's a good balance for Randall, because sometimes watching a story, I'm like, Oh, another thing that you're going to be like, really sad about, like, which I just got so judgy, which shows, you know, as you're watching, but she's such a good balance to him, and they play off each other. So well, it makes me like them both more.
Jackie Leonard 16:57
Yeah, it's like him on his own would almost be like too much. But because you see them together, they're just like, such a team that they you see, like them draw out the better parts of each other and like, call out the parts are so good. And, and so you're like, okay, like, he has somebody that's gonna like, you know, make sure that he's not going too far off the deep end, and he's there for her. And when she's like, you know, drowning. And it's, it's a really beautiful thing to see their dynamic. So yeah, yeah, I agree. Okay, so when so when I reached out to Gil about, you know, getting ready for this episode, I was like, what are some scenes that have stood out to you because this show, as we've said, has like spans now seven seasons, it's ending at the end of the season, and there's so much that we could cover. So I really wanted to just say like, what are some moments or scenes or a topic that that you want to focus on. And Julia shared a few scenes that took me right back when I watched them. So I'll link those, those video clips. Luckily, there's these YouTube video clips of these scenes, which I'll link those in the show notes so that those of you listening can can watch those and maybe even like pause to rewatch them as you're hearing this conversation. The first thing that that you identified, Gil was a scene where Rebecca and is talking to Kevin about what makes him special and I just wanted you to share to maybe just a little tiny bit about that scene and what why you picked it.
Jill Yancey 18:28
So it's interesting because I've noticed the relationship that will get me a lot is the Kevin Rebecca relationship. I don't know what it is. I don't know if I relate with like, me and my oldest, I'm not sure but I just feel like there's some really real moments with them that I just her telling him and that scene she's telling him the like, This is Dino what makes you special. And she's talking about how he can like lighten any moment and lighten the mood and they're flashing back to like, the fun that they had together. And I can see like in I mean, they're good actors, so I can see in his eyes when she's saying that, how that makes them feel to be truly seen by his mom. And that it maybe it just reminds me that we don't I mean a lot of double negatives but like we don't ever not need that affirmation. Maybe we get to a point we don't but I haven't found that I don't feel that desire for my parents to affirm who I am or to see me. So maybe that's why they got me.
Jackie Leonard 19:36
Yeah, and you know, as you were talking I was just like having these flashes and I think what makes Rebecca such a powerful like matriarch in their family and Jack too, because we see that in him as well when they're when they're growing up before he passes away. But Rebecca like, sees her children and she like at many different points throughout the year. So you she has these moments with each of her kids where she tells them like, what makes them special, like who they are. And it's not in that way where like, you know, we've seen before where it's kind of like the parent that, like, won't let go of like the child version, you know, I mean, where it's like, you always love this, like, don't use, like, that's who you are. And it's like, well, I've changed, you know, it's not that it's more like, she sees them and has seen how they've evolved and how they've grown. And she is able to, like, reflect that to them. Because we don't, as people like we can't, we were so in ourselves that we can't see, like what we are all the time or like, especially what makes us special when we're struggling. And I think in this moment on the show, he's really struggling. And she's like, you know, talks about this gift. And as a viewer when I rewatch the scene, like sometimes Kevin has that effect, because he's like, so charming, and kind of a little like, he's the, the actor on the show. So self absorbed. And so it's very easy to like, roll your eyes a Kevin. But he's also like, just a very charming actor. And, and I think it was well done that they gave that character, that kind of role. But she, when she says that about him, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. And so it only was like, as a viewer, I was like, reminded of that about him. And so I was like, for her to have that power as the mom be able to say that. And like she's commanded the show in that way where I even I was like, oh, yeah, you're right.
Jill Yancey 21:26
Totally. You you're like, oh, yeah, I value him more now. Like I see that now. Well, yeah. It totally I agree. I really, really like how she how you mentioned that she truly sees her kids for who they are. I think that's huge. And I think when they're teens, there's some scenes where you see them just brushing her off. But every now and then there's a scene where like, she'll say something that that hits them, but it's really in the adult years that I think that's also therapeutic to know maybe when my kids are adults, though, like, maybe really what I say will resonate, because you can see as they're adults, they value so much what she thinks what she says.
Jackie Leonard 22:05
And that's what the powerful about how much it jumps around in time. And like as a writer, just saying how brilliantly they're able to, like connect these moments across decades. 10 I'm like, wow, like, I would just love to like almost like, look at a script and see that because it just, it really is so well done, where you can almost imagine as the older character, having that memory in that moment that ties them to all these different legs,
Jill Yancey 22:34
you don't get lost. Mm hmm.
Jackie Leonard 22:37
I read somewhere that the Kevin character is and I think they've maybe mentioned this in the show as well, but Kevin's character is like, he's very much like Jack, and that he has these very kind of, like, beautiful overtures and gestures that he does. And, you know, that, like, how she says that, you know, you, you make people forget things and feel at ease and stuff. And, and I felt like Jack had that, that impact as well. And so I can imagine that that also makes a relationship so charged, is that she kind of maybe sees so much of her husband, her late husband in this, the sun, and, you know, has moments where maybe she expects more of him than she should or leans on him in a way that's too much for him. And he, you know, he struggles with it. And also that she has that sometimes with her son Randall as well. But I think with Kevin, it's like loaded in the way that it's like, such a deep connection to Jack, then. And we see that that like Jack was very charming, and does all these great things and has these wonderful speeches. And Kevin has those moments as well or he tries to and doesn't doesn't rise to the occasion. But you see that that he's almost like living in his dad shadow in a way.
Jill Yancey 23:59
That's so cool. Because I haven't thought about them like that. But I'm like, Oh, yes. And I'm sure the writers that was intentional, especially as they're connecting Kevin Moore to their dad toward the end and with building the that house and all of that. And it's interesting, too, because we see our parents, I mean, maybe we see our parents as a mess, depending on who your parents are, but like, you see them like more fully cooked the new art and so then like there's we get this version of Jack, but they don't dive too much into like his alcoholism or even like those early stupider years. And it seems that he figured out his stuff earlier on than Kevin. But, you know, it's hard to live in a shadow of someone who's, you know, this many years ahead of where you're at. And I could see Kevin, being that to his his kids, his little twins someday. Yeah, it's
Jackie Leonard 24:54
interesting because in some ways, like, I read somewhere that you know, they show kind of Take this out and made us think that this show was about Jack so much, because so much of the earlier seasons were very like, oh my gosh, this dad is like super dad. He's amazing. He says these like beautiful things, and he's so bonded with his kids. And he's just there and rabbet. And that was what I felt was lacking a little bit in the beginning was like, I just felt like Rebecca was kind of this. She just seemed to be there. And she was kind of the mom and, and Jack was the one that was just like, you know, the the one that grabbed all of our attention. And I think the actor as well is another one like, like, like Mandy Moore, where it's like, we also identify with him so much, because he's been on so many shows that we've like grown up over the years as well. But like, seeing him in this dad role, just everybody was so like, into jack for those first few seasons. And I feel like it shifted where it's like it almost tricked us into thinking it was centering this, like dad who was such a prominent role in all their lives. And I mean, he was, but we see how much the mom, you know how much Rebecca is really just like the core of the show.
Jill Yancey 26:02
You know, what I like about that is that I feel like this might not be the dynamic in all families. It's definitely the dynamic in my family. Dad in our house is the rock star we love dad is the favorite dad can do almost no wrong. And, and I it's not the same for me. And probably because I have more time with them. And I'm, you know, i i Who knows may handle things different, but I can be more of a disciplinarian. But I think that is the case, a lot of times, I know some other families that are that way. And you grew up and you kind of like realize, oh, this is what my mom did for me. I know, I felt before like, just kind of in the shadow, just kind of like I'm just the mom, I'm not getting promotions, I'm not doing things. I'm just here and I'm changing the diapers, but it's all those little things that really do matter so much. And I like that the show kind of takes us down that kind of same path. I think it's interesting.
Jackie Leonard 27:02
Well, that's like when you say it's like therapy, it's like, it feels so intentional. It feels like not like manipulative, but like just like, they want it to take us on this journey in a very, like they knew what they were doing. And and it's rewarding in that way. And it also makes you realize kind of like, like you said, like our own family stuff in like a way that we feel seen. And also makes us think about it deeper like what like and it just made, I have to bring up that therapy scene that I shared with you as well, that same season. Only No, it's very early in the show. It's like the second season. So Kevin, this character that we've been talking about, I wanted to bring it up because of the dynamic between the two. He's in rehab for I think mostly it was drinking, right, it was just alcohol, and maybe prescription meds. But he he had been arrested because he was like drunk driving with his niece, which was his brother's daughter, which made a lot like a lot of lot of stuff going on with the family and a lot of built up frustrations. And so Kevin is in a scene where he does group therapy and his family comes to visit him in rehab and it's his mom, his brother and his sister. And it's just a really intense scene. And it's when Kevin kind of admits gets off his chest that he's always felt like he was like the Forgotten child like his parents focus more on his other brother because he was adopted and even his sister kind of dominated a lot of the attention but he was always kind of just like off on his own didn't really get the the love of his parents that he wanted and he has I don't know who I would say targets the mom but because she there she kind of bears the brunt of that. And it's so like just watching it it's very like difficult but at the same time you're just like wow, this feels so real. And it's it's so powerful and that you feel all the different people's like you feel for each of them. And and like I said there are moments when Kevin comes off as like, okay, like you're being too much but I was feeling like defensive of him watching that scene because his siblings are like, trying to protect their mom they're jumping in and this is a moment where Kevin supposed to be able to do this because it's part of his program and then you're just all getting very defensive. Rebecca is getting defensive and at one point the therapist says something to her about their father her husband because he had he also had you know addiction issues and she's like did you ever talk to your kids about this you know, because now your son is and is this something that maybe you could have you know, open up more about and she shuts it down very much because she's like you know they're dead died it was awful. I like not gonna like soil their memory and so when you talk about this, you know the rock star dad image and also remind makes me wonder like, how much of that is mom's also wanting to, you know, build up there for the father wanting to like, sometimes, like, take on some of the negative stuff so that they have this rockstar image of their, their parents, one of their parents. And it's like she that she did that and I could see I've seen this with people I know whose parents whose parents have passed away early that there is that kind of heightens idealization of the parent that that passed, because you know, you want to hold on to the good memories. And what this shows done really well is also like, have them explore some of the things that were not so good about their dad that maybe they didn't see or, you know, what didn't want to think about?
Jill Yancey 30:40
Right? Well, and it's a disservice to like Kevin to not want to bring up that he their dad struggled with this or no Jack was too good to deal with this. But you this is a year, it would have been so much more helpful to be able to talk about it more and know that that's really something he could relate with with his dad. And that would give him the hope that he can be as great as his dad is where I think we do make that mistake sometimes of not wanting to let our kids think anything, you know, bad of ourselves or a partner. But I really that whole scene got me because I was feeling for everyone. Like, Oh, I feel for Kevin. And then I'm like, gosh, that therapist is harsh. But then am I true. And then I'm seeing Kate be silent. And then Randles like the defender Kevin's the victim. But then Rebecca, she totally gets defensive. And I get it. I'm like just going my brains going like Poupon ping pong, because I'm just like, I You can't be defensive. But also I get why you're defensive. And it was so like, you're just it's building up and my chest was tight. And then that moment when she says he wasn't my favorite, he just was easier. Like, he just was easier. He didn't recoil when I touched him. And I'm like, Oh, I totally can get that dynamic. I truly think most moms probably don't have a favorite. I know I do not have a favorite child. But I have kids at certain times that are easier for me. And same with Dane. And sometimes it's like you were saying sometimes it's the opposite kid from each other. Which is great. Because then I'm like, Alright, we've got our bases covered. But it's you're a human to and you're supposed to be like mom and indifferent and let the hurtful things kind of roll off your back. And because they're your kids, but also you're like fully human. And it's I don't know, they just captured it all really well.
Jackie Leonard 32:43
Yeah, when she just like when she snaps and says that he was just easier. It was just like, Yeah, I mean, it just, it just opened up so much for me to think about, like, you know, there's this natural ebb and flow that we have in all relationships, where relationships sometimes are more challenging or harder, or we just aren't connecting as well. And we have that in friendships and romantic relationships, all kinds of relationships. And to not think that we wouldn't have that with our own children is hard. I mean, it's like, or it's not to think that we might have that with our children, if we have young children, and then you know, as parents to realize that, that is a dynamic that happens is hard. But then also, what I think Rebecca does so well is that even when she, you know, is defensive, or she snaps or reacts in a certain way, you often still often see her, you know, do the repair, which, you know, I've learned is like, the most important part actually, where she'll, you know, make sure to have a conversation reflect after, after she's reflected and say, like, you know, and she doesn't, like she still holds her own. Like, I feel like she has enough agency to be like, you know, I'm not happy about this, but I understand that that's how you feel or whatever the situation. And I think that that's so different from what we've seen in so many other mom characters, you know, from past like childhood shows or things like that, like this is just like not what we would see in a mom. I
Jill Yancey 34:08
don't mom characters from when we were younger, including in like Disney movies, if there even was a mom, it's there always so one dimensional. And so either the best and or, or the worst. There's not like a lot of just who moms really are, which is just people.
Jackie Leonard 34:26
Yeah. And with Rebecca, I think there were some times that I was kind of like, she's so naggy sometimes she's so cranky, like, you know, it's like it was like frustrating me to see that kind of mom. But you see her as a younger person and she has those elements like she's a little, you know, independent. She wasn't sure she wanted to have kids. She had a tough relationship with her own mom and so you could see how like, that's her, you know? And, and still, she's just such a like, invested mom, like, you know what I mean? And so I think I have really grown to appreciate all of her dynamics. And I think in the past, I was like, all the men on this show are like, the, you know, the rockstars. You've got, you know, Kevin, you've got Jack, and you've got Randall, and even when they're flawed you like, they're so lovable. And I was like, Why don't they do that with the women? And it's like, now I think the more I've thought about it, I'm like, I see. You know, Rebecca. I think Rebecca, they've done such an amazing job with just making her so nuanced and so complex. In the most recent seasons, I still feel like with, I mean, and I feel that way about Beth too. I feel like they've shown so many different sides to her. I still feel a little lacking with Kate's, and maybe we'll get into that. But maybe the time is still coming. I don't know. We'll see.
Jill Yancey 35:51
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I think too, though, that for sure. There's the writers and have like, maybe not bringing as much to the table for the women. But I also think, as a woman watching the show, sometimes I am maybe just from like, the misogynistic environment of just what we live in every day. Maybe like, I'm harder on the female characters. Maybe I'm less inclined. I mean, I hated admitting that that could be true, but maybe that is, because I kind of felt the same with like, Rebecca, like she Nagesh so negative, but I'm like, How often do I feel that way? I do all the time. Probably my family feels that way too. But, but, but what also why does that have to make her like, less than or less likeable? Because like, Randles got, like, you know, his issues happening all the time. And we still are like, but you're amazing. Look how you handle it. And I think I do that less with the woman. Yeah, and I'm trying to to them. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 36:55
Yeah. I mean, I was like, on the nose because I, I've been aware of that as well for myself. And it's interesting to see, I think how maybe the show's evolved. Or maybe I've evolved in the, because it shows seven seasons, how many years is that? Right? Like, longer than I've been apparent. So it was like, in the beginning, I was watching it and being like, well look at these like great guys. And then it was like, What's wrong with these ladies? And then as I've like, felt more and more like I maybe can relate. I've seen it more but but yeah, that that Patreon, right? It's just like, it makes it does have an impact. I was actually looking on like Twitter to see like, how people respond to characters because I was curious. This past week with the most recent episode that was centering Kate, and they I mean, it is strong, the the pro man vibe, even you know, among women and moms like just all of them were Kate's husband, who is one of their you know, the jack and Rebecca's daughter is married to you know, to her, her husband's Toby. And there's issues with their relationship at the forefront and recent episodes, and everyone was just like, Kate is so whiny, like, Why can't she be happy? Toby is is a dream. Like, I would love to have a husband like that. I was just like, oh my gosh, like so surprised. Very, very, very few I, I'll probably like share some screenshots or something just to like, show the dynamic, but like, just harsh, just very, very critical of Kate. And I haven't seen her in that regard. But to see that that's like the norm was very surprising.
Jill Yancey 38:29
And that was one of my favorite Kate episodes. Where I finally was like, yes, like and not because of like any one decision or something she's making in her marriage, but just like, feeling she was fully like her and and I don't know represented well, I That's a funny.
Jackie Leonard 38:50
Yeah, I know. That's what that was part of why I went on there because I was like, Well, I want to see what people are saying. And like, so many were very, very hyper critical of her. And I was like, saying, I was like, this is an episode that really I felt like she shine and I understood her in a new way.
Jill Yancey 39:02
Interesting. So funny.
Jackie Leonard 39:05
Um, speaking of Kate and I brought up Beth as well another scene you you wanted to that you highlighted was the one which I loved. From season four, Episode Eight, it's a Thanksgiving episode. And it's where Beth who has Randles wife is talking with kids about their evil thoughts. And so why did that episode that scene stand up to you?
Jill Yancey 39:31
Because it's like just such a breath of fresh air is that that to me is how the relationships that I value the most of my life that is how they are and it's and it needs to be for me with another woman. So I it's like this because there's so much posturing like in the world and motherhood and all the things and you never want to look too much of one way because people like we're talking about, they're harsh. They're gonna judge you and you're already judging yourself. so much, you don't want any more of that put on us. So we like present. And I just like that raw moment of like, tell me what your evil thought is. And she's like, okay, my daughter is having a great time with her birth mom. And I hate it. I kind of wanted her birth mom to fail, which is like not, you know, intellectually what she wanted. But she's like, if I'm being real, that's how I'm feeling. And I'm like, to be able to say that out loud. And then someone else to be able to hear it another woman and be able to like, say, I see that and I raised you. And it's like, it's just, it feels good to be at me and my sister, one of my sisters, we have this thing. We call it the gentle parenting club. And we'll call and be like, I'll call her and say, Hey, gentle parenting club. And she's like, Oh, what happened? And I tell her the really shameful thing that I did. That was not gentle. That was not. And she's like, Oh, I feel you. And she's like, a few years ahead of me in the parenting game. So then she comes back with like, one of her own stories from either that week or somewhere in history of like, Yes, this is the time i and then we can like kind of, it's like, we can get it out. And then she like can give me some like helpful advice. But first, it's like, you just need someone to hear. You're really shameful. I don't know. I loved it. I felt like it was very true to
Jackie Leonard 41:23
women. And I loved it. It was a great like model for what you should want. Yes. It's like if you don't have that, like, this is what, you know, moms, they're both moms. And that same should be doing for each other as well. Like, yeah, I love that gentle parenting club.
Jill Yancey 41:38
And it does. And it doesn't like make us like, Okay, well, we just get to be this way forever. Like, it's not that angry mom club. It's like, it's that. Okay, this is like, this is the awful thing. And but then, and like, there's little things, you know, sometimes it's advice at the end, sometimes it's not, but it's, it's not that you just want to sit in your bed and have someone tell you, it's okay. You just want to know that you're human. And still, there can be a better tomorrow.
Jackie Leonard 42:05
I love that distinction. Because I in a recent episode, I talked about like the movie Bad Moms, and they're like, we can all be bad moms. Like it's fine. I did this and it was like, there's not that like other layer of like support or like, we you know, it, it felt just like almost like just like a punch line, a joke kind of thing like or like, you know, just like not realistic way to be where it's like, oh, we can just accept everything and not try to grow. There was like, but you have to have that. Be in a situation where you feel comfortable, and you're talking to somebody you trust, so that you can sense and then be able to say like, well, this is maybe what we could work on. And that's what about does so well because she opens up and she shares this. And then Kate says, you know, she's tired of her CrossFit husband. He's like, a different character. And she's over it. And Beth listens to her. She laughs along with her. And then she's kind of like, but if this is something you're really feeling, you need to talk to your husband, like, you shouldn't be talking to me. Like, if you're only talking to people, about somebody else, and not your husband, you know about your husband, and you're not talking to your husband about how you're feeling like That's right. And I felt like shine a light. Yeah, I felt like she did it so well. And it was also kind of crazy to see that. That was like in season four. And now in season seven, we're realizing that they're really their marriage is not gonna last and so that Yeah. Oh, wow. Like it was for that long, you know, or longer that there were a lot of things that were problematic for them that have slowly evolved, right. And it's also very realistic to Yes, yes to life. And so then another scene, and this is from season six. So the second to last season. We haven't really said this yet, but Rebecca finds out that she has. I don't know if they've said it's Alzheimer's. But she said we're having like cognitive decline, like her memory. Oh, and they know that that's something that's going to happen to her. And they learn this in, I guess season six at the first episode. And it's a conversation that Kevin and Kate have with each other about their mom's diagnosis and you identified that one so what what's it up for you?
Jill Yancey 44:17
It just hit me so much. I couldn't even remember what I thought actually, it was even more recent episode. I'm realizing it just stuck with me that much that I thought it was just like a minute ago that I watched that but it was a few back. But yeah, it just hit me because Kevin's talking to a sister and they're just like, Okay, this is real. She's really dealing with this really big awful potential disease or whatever if they've diagnosed her. And it's like, it just feels like the world should stop turning for mom and he's kind of sitting there and he's like, yep, that's about right. Like the world should stop turning for mom. Oh, and it just I felt like it. I don't know it just captured. How you feel about your Mom airline did me of my dad when his mom passed away. And we went to a funeral. And my dad and his three brothers and his sister, they're all standing up at the, like the podium doing something. Maybe they were singing. But these men are these tall, intimidating men. And they're all I saw all of them just weeping. And I just thought these grown men, they're just that's just her four little boys up there. And, and her daughter, like, and these are, you know, men in their 60s at the time, early 60s, late 50s. I don't know. It just hit me with Kevin like, you're like when it comes to your mom, you're still just that little kid.
Jackie Leonard 45:45
Yeah. And now as it's so kind of striking that scene, because yeah, he's talking about like, when our worlds fall apart, like the like, it's keeps going like our world. Like my mom, our world is like, falling apart and everything. So like business as usual. Like, how unfair is that? And how he says, like for her? How unfair is it for her that like we can like all stop everything we're doing for her? Probably like the inferences the way she would do for us.
Jill Yancey 46:16
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, yeah. Yeah. And that's the interesting thing about this parenting relationships is the idea that, like you do, give some back to your parents. But really, the idea is that you put it forward and to your kids, and they put it into, you know, and forward and forward. And it's, yeah, it's it gives, you'll never as I realize, I'm like, Oh, I'll never be able to, like pay back my mom for and that isn't what, what the what the deal is, it's that you just keep trying to do what they did. Good. And send that on forward.
Jackie Leonard 46:49
Yeah, I mean, it's like it's a, I don't know if that's the right way to say it. But it's like a thankless job in the sense that like, as a parent, you should shouldn't expect that of your children, like you want them to relive that with their own families like or to have their own lives that are flourishing. And it reminds me of that scene. And it really kind of connects well, to a recent scene where Rebecca tells her adult children like, this is happening to me, like you need to keep like your lives, like she demands it. Like you need to keep living your lives. Stop, you know, trying to basically freeze time, and pause your lives because I've lived my life. And it's, I'm not going to let this like disease. unravel your your dreams and what you want for yourselves, you need to go out and live. Yeah,
Jill Yancey 47:36
the only thing worse about your own suffering is knowing that your suffering will affect your kids. I've thought before because I'm a warrior, I thought oh my gosh, if Dane ever dies, it's gonna be awful. Because I I'd be mourning him. But then I'd also be like mourning my children mourning and just anything you go through personally knowing that it's going to affect your kids. It that's a portable, it's a hard weight. And it just is the reality. So I just get that speech when she's like, live your life. Because that really is what I mean. That's what I want for my kids.
Jackie Leonard 48:13
And she said, you know, this, this disease is going to be harder on you guys than me. And that's like, the hardest part. And I was like, Oh my gosh, just again, like her self awareness and her ability to like, also know her kids and know what they would do. Like, if she didn't basically tell them, You can't do this. So like, she has that, that presence, that power in their family dynamic to be like, You need to listen to what I'm saying. And respect that. Because otherwise, if she hadn't, like, we all know their personalities, like we know what each of them would be doing. If she didn't set a very clear, like, expectation and tell them to go do it. And after that big speech, you see how the kids go off and, like, honor that in their own ways. And it's really beautiful. Yeah, for sure. Um, so, I mean, I there's so many moments that I could bring up and so I'm gonna just have to stop there. But I would say just that if people you know, have let the show go for a while or won't not this this last season has just been like, such a like almost like a grand finale, it feels like so I just encourage you to just rewatch it. There's so many things this most recent episode that we mentioned that Kate is like, centered in, really like, does such a beautiful job of showing like the like the unspoken or the unwitnessed labor I don't know if like the labor of a mom, you know, it shows her what she's doing while her husband is basically working. He's away five days out of the week usually or more. In San Francisco while she's in LA with her two kids. One is a blind child and you know, trying to embrace this job that She is loving and just thriving. She was thriving in that environment you see, but just how much she carries as a result. And it was just such a strong episode, it aired just this week. So you know, just go back and look, but just so well done, I left it. I wanted to talk before we go, though about this has come up a lot and some of the episodes we've done, but especially for this show, I felt like it was a good one to kind of bring up this conversation because I don't really know where I stand. But I would just love to hear just your thoughts on a story that especially at this point in this the show how much it centers. The moms specifically, what do you feel about some a story like that written predominantly by men? Do you think it's, I mean, we talked about how well it's done right? So it's possible. But I just like Wonder something about it doesn't always sit right with me, I find myself wondering sometimes like, how would it be different if it was written by a woman, this this episode that we, that we were talking about that Kate was in, and she was centered was co written by the actress who ours is Kate and it was directed by Mandy Moore. So it was like, this was one of the first episodes that I saw Kate and I was like, I see you, I feel you I like felt so deeply for her in a way that I haven't really fully connected with up until this time. And I was like, it's very interesting. I realized after the fact that it was written by this woman and also directed by a woman. And I don't think the actress that plays me is a mom, but Mandy Moore is a new mom. And so it just had all these layers that I felt like, maybe are missed, I don't know. So I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that.
Jill Yancey 51:46
So, like you I'm not like my opinion could probably be swayed. My initial gut reaction is that if it's done well, in my opinion, so like, just me as the viewer, it's very subjective. But then I'm okay with that man wrote this story really well with the women who I think are dynamic and that I love. I have to imagine in this show, that there was a lot of consulting with either the female actors with I mean, I don't know, I don't know who all the writers are. Maybe there's some women on there. I don't know. But, um, yeah, cuz I feel like, yeah, there were probably some layers missed. Um, but he was the one with the story. And I understand when it's okay, yeah, but there's this many women with a story who aren't getting the chance because men are dominating the same. I could be naive, but I feel like more and more there are spaces specifically dedicated to like, let's get women writers like like what we do at teller co we're like, We're not against, you know, highlighting like, a man and what he's doing. But most of the people we have on our teller talks, all the things are women focused? And I don't know, so maybe it's not enough. But I feel like, I feel okay with that. I feel like I like most of the writers that I love our women. So I feel like I'm reading a lot of female writers. So I guess I feel I'm okay with it. If I I personally feel it was done. Well. Yeah. Like I said, my opinion could be swayed. But I don't know. I just think whatever your story is, because we write stories that we are not the person all the time. Like, I feel like if you go there, then you have to limit. Well, what story can I not tell and ideas, writers that you get to tell any story you want? I think,
Jackie Leonard 53:47
yeah, I think it works well for this show. Because it's such an ensemble show. We write how like, it's so deep and dense with all the characters. So I feel like that gives it a lot of grace, because it wasn't like he came in and was like, I want to write a show about like a mother daughter relationship. And that's going to be my like, my show. One show that came to mind that I feel like has kind of given me that little ping that I'm kind of like I don't know, I think they should have done it this way. Was Handmaid's Tale, and I don't know if you've seen that show.
Jill Yancey 54:23
But not really. It's a little I'm pretty like, yeah, it was a little too much for me.
Jackie Leonard 54:30
It's it is so but I will say it's like the it's the showrunner as a man and I was kind of like, really like for a show that's supposed to be like so much of a dystopian about women like that, you know, have been basically stripped of their rights by men. Why are we doing this like we have that power to to intentionally pick a you know, a woman who's a showrunner. And so a show like that. I'm kind of like, why did we like we didn't have to Maybe even if this person did a great job, like, that's not the point. Right? So I can show like this with Dan Fogelman. I feel like I've also seen his body of work and he does seem, I don't know his personal life. I think he does have a relationship with his mom that he's like, been understanding. And maybe this is like the Opus to that because he, he did he he wrote tangled, which I don't know if you know, I don't know that. That's so cool. And I think that's his connection with me anymore, which is interesting. Well, that makes sense. And I kind of like, gave him a hard time because he wrote this like, evil mom character. And her like Song mother knows best. I'm like, What's the deal with his mom? Like, why did some of the ways she acts? I'm kind of like, are you trying to say something here? Yeah, and then he did the he wrote, I think he wrote and I don't know if he directed but he had a pretty heavy role in the movie. Crazy, Stupid Love.
Jill Yancey 55:58
Love that movie.
Jackie Leonard 56:00
Very similar kind of vibe, especially as like the early part of the show. Cuz I remember I watched it because I was like, Oh, that was a fun. Maybe I'll see what the show is. And I didn't realize Yeah, but with that show, I feel like the men stand out a lot to me as like the, you know, the ones like Steve corral. And Ryan Gosling. Were like, you know, the, the women are like a black one. Yeah. And so I was kind of like, okay, let's, so that was before. He also wrote a movie called guilt trip. I don't know if you've heard of, but it's stars like Seth Rogen and Barbra Streisand, and it's about like a mother son, like road trip that they take. And just like the fact that it's called guilt trip, I'm just like a watch. Like, what's, what's going on with this mom and son. So I feel like he's been kind of like exploring that Mother Son relationship. And so that's why I think when we see some powerful scenes between Kevin and Rebecca, and even Randall and Rebecca, they feel more. I've always felt like they feel more like, deep. Yeah, okay. And Kate stuff. I feel like I agree. I think Kate stuff has always been about like, body image and jealousy. And I'm kind of like, okay, like,
Jill Yancey 57:06
yeah, and I guess that's to your point of a man writing because clearly he can do the Mother Son dynamic. He knows that where he's gonna follow more short and the Rebecca, I'm still okay, that he's the one that wrote this, this story. But I totally agree. And that's such, that's huge insight to realize, oh, like all these other mother, daughter, Mother Son. Stories he's explored.
Jackie Leonard 57:33
Yeah. And so it's been fun to kind of like, share that with you, because it really does kind of show us the trajectory. And I think, like I said, I think it can be done. And it's nice to have an example like this, of how it's done well. But there are, I think there are so many examples. And I bet if we look back on some of the shows that we referenced that like, are we like kind of alluded to that we grew up watching that had these like, one dimensional mom characters, they probably were written by men just like, statistically speaking, there weren't very many women writers in entertainment, and there still are a lot less than, than men. So yeah, that's all just been something I've been sensitive to, as I've been talking about this. But I think like you said, it's like, if he has that, he knows that relationship at his core. He's doing it really well. He's able to see his mom or the mom figure and write about it. And he must be getting some sort of consulting, if he's not having writing, because I just feels like so much of it is just very well done. That I'm not saying he doesn't have that range. But it's like, I would imagine that that would be what a writer would do. Right? Like, do that if I was reading?
Jill Yancey 58:44
Yeah, there'd be things I would miss in the father son relationship, even though I born close witness to it with my own children and all that, but there'd be some things I'd missed, for sure.
Jackie Leonard 58:56
Totally. And like he brought on I remember when they've done episodes that were related to like the military, and like the Vietnam War, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna be so bad. I'm gonna have to, like reference it in the show notes. Because now I don't remember. They brought on like, a famous author to write the episode who has has was, you know, did serve in Vietnam, and has written books about it. And so, you know, when they have moments, and I know, when they've tackled some very heavy episodes that deal with racism, they've brought in, you know, black writers to do those episodes, because I think so, to make sure that they are represented in the most, you know, accurate, true way that they can, so I feel like he has had that role and knowing when to step back, and I think that speaks a lot to at least his ability to, to write these characters so well. Yeah. Yeah, that's
Jill Yancey 59:54
really interesting. I agree.
Jackie Leonard 59:57
Oh, well. We are going to wrap up, I think this is probably a pretty obvious question. But for every show or movie we talk about, I like to give it a stamp of either the mom advocate a show that really does seem to do its best to center moms and depict them in a real honest way. Is it a guilty pleasure where it has some great elements, but there are some stuff that are a little problematic in the way they represent motherhood? Or is it a mom guilt? Is a guilty of being mom guilt inducer by basically showing one dimensional stereotypical representations of mom are triggering mom guilt for people who watch it. So which sample to give this as us?
Jill Yancey 1:00:42
I was given a mom advocate, I think for me, but I think I can also see it triggering mom guilt. I'm not that I think it's guilty of that. I just think so much of what we take in is like what we bring to the table when we're watching it. So I don't know. Like, there's been times I felt like, oh, kind of guilty when I'm seeing something done in the parenting that I'm like, I do that, or oh, I you know, and I feel a little of that. But I think that's part of the true and honest representation. And I really, I think the moms are amazing in the show, especially as they're rounding out Kate's story more. So I'm going to go with mom advocate overall.
Jackie Leonard 1:01:33
Yeah, and I think we've kind of said that this show is a bit of a mirror. But I think that is advocating for moms. It's like kind of allowing us to explore some areas that maybe we feel sensitive to, but in a way that's more intentional and gentle than, like, shaming months. So I think it's Robin that way, I would give him that stamp as well.
Jill Yancey 1:01:55
I think you're right. Okay. And this is totally we didn't you might just need a cup of self. Do you remember there was a scene in one of the seasons with Rebecca and it was really focused on her and like the like, I feel like she was in the cabin. But it was doing a lot of flashbacks of focusing on like the really, really like hard times she was going through is this all ringing a specific Bell, but there's something that was so powerful, and I remember my sister calling me about it, but that's like, all that's coming to my mind was
Jackie Leonard 1:02:26
the hard time was no, it was it just reminded me of the painting. There's like a painting that they do. She's like having like just a meltdown with the kids I think and their dad, the dad Jack has like the kids paint something. And he like gives us like beautiful speech and kind of talks about how like I think she kind of messed up she did something and he kind of like, you know, we can't you know, you can't do that with the kids. But like, I don't know, he like shows her this painting like an or maybe it was I don't I remember what you're talking about. I don't know what he says like, every time we look at it, we'll remember like to like be better to kind of take a step back or I don't know what it was. It was something like that painting was there to like them.
Jill Yancey 1:03:16
Yeah, I feel like that might be part of it. I feel like maybe she broke something and there's a scene where she's like sweeping something up that I'll have to go back and like I don't know it but I wish I would have thought of that before because it was like a big one for me, but I didn't remember it till just now.
Jackie Leonard 1:03:32
Yeah, I like want to like pull it up but I'm not gonna like dang it. But But yeah, I mean, there's Gosh, I don't know. I can't really go on and on. Um, before we go, I do want to have people share how they can connect or help. I'm gonna start over I was like distracted wanting to see like maybe I can find a really quick Okay, before we go, can you share how people can connect with you after listening?
Jill Yancey 1:04:04
Yeah, so they can find me on Instagram. That's where I mostly am at Jill writes a book or they can go to my website where I am starting to send out my regular newsletter which is called Dear writer so my website is just Gil Yancey author.com Or they can join the writing community that I run with a shore Antoinette teller CO on Instagram.
Jackie Leonard 1:04:32
Yeah and Jill's I highly recommend following along with Jill she's just such a every time I read your writing, I feel both like seen and then also like my thoughts are extended, like it makes me think about something in a different way. So we are very lucky mother scope. Jill is a new contributor. So her writing will be there as well. But be sure to follow along because you do share this lovely you do this daily memoir. Pretty awful. And I feel like it's just enough to carry me through the day. So thank you.
Jill Yancey 1:05:03
That was really sweet. That's a big compliment coming from you. And I have to say thank you for providing women and moms, newer writers with such a great platform that like I'm proud to be a part of and it's I've been very grateful. So thank you.
Jackie Leonard 1:05:18
Thank you. That's so kind. I loved this conversation. It was so fun. More to come, I guess.
Jill Yancey 1:05:26
Yeah. What's our next show?
Jackie Leonard 1:05:29
Yeah, I know. I was like, we could do part two on this, but I don't know. We'll see what people think. All right, by Joe by the