Mothering Your Own Mother & Narcissistic Abuse on Maid

Apr 5

ABOUT THE EPISODE

It’s always ever present in my mind that I need to do things for myself, do something that makes me feel good for the sake of feeling good. But so often, as a mom, I find myself choosing to sit in the stress. So, that’s what I’m feeling guilty about this week, what about you?

Something that has been truly nurturing for me though, is the conversation that you’re about to hear with Mona Ray as we discuss the Netflix mini-series “Maid” (2021, Metzler). We’re going to be diving into the complex dynamic of mother-daughter relationships, especially when addiction, abuse, and mental illness are involved. Mona and I both have a bit of experience with toxic and abusive relationships in our own pasts, so it was interesting to see, watch and talk with that perspective. “Maid” is a series that is by no means easy to watch, but it is a necessary one to finish.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

The perfect casting of the series, its real life connections, and the dynamic of its cast
The effects of having to mother your own mother and narcissistic abuse
How “Maid” excels at revealing the challenges of escaping the cycle of abuse
Breaking the stigma that the work of a stay-at-home mom is not a “real” job
The struggle for single moms vs. dads, especially when a different socioeconomic level is involved
The power of writing and how Mona wishes she saw this portrayed on the series
How to consume a series like “Maid” when it is hard to watch but necessary to finish
Believing that the universe knows what you need

RESOURCES MENTIONED

WRITING PROMPT

Describe a day in your life that you were really happy, it can be a real day that actually happened or an imagined day that you wish would happen.

GUEST BIO

MONA RAY is a filipina-american visual artist, dancer, writer & mental health advocate. She homeschools her two children when she’s not working on art. She just finished writing a New Adult fiction novel centered around mental health and healing generational trauma that she’s currently seeking representation for. She enjoys creating, storytelling and hanging out with her kids and husband.

CONNECT WITH MONA

Jackie Leonard 00:04
Hi, Mona. Welcome to the podcast.

Mona Ray 00:08
Hi, guys with me today,

Jackie Leonard 00:11
we have a special guest, a little nine month old who has lots of opinions about the show, too. I think you might hear him at different times. And he's that's what he's trying to say. Yeah, see? Yeah. So can you wanna share a little bit about yourself for those listening?

Mona Ray 00:33
My name is Mona. I am 29 years old. I am a creative visual director, full time artists and writer and stay at home mom, homeschool mama of two. Um, and yeah, we're just you know, out here with the kids.

Jackie Leonard 00:51
Wearing a lot of hats,

Mona Ray 00:53
wearing a lot of hats.

Jackie Leonard 00:56
So today, what we're going to talk about is the I keep calling it a show, I don't know, I think it's like a mini series, it was a 10 episode. The show to keep saying that about the movie are called made. And it's based on a book that was written by Stephanie land, about her experience that is similar to what's on the show about a mom who is in an abusive situation, she has to get out with her young daughter and she turns to cleaning houses in a maid service to make ends meet. And you and I kind of reached out to different people about shows or movies people talk about made was what stood out to you was on my list. And I wanted to just first start off by asking, why were you drawn to the show made and what was your experience when you first watched it?

Mona Ray 01:53
Um, I actually, when I read the description of the show, I was like, Huh, okay, like I didn't really think too much into I didn't think I would get as deeply involved with the show as I did. I felt so moved by it, not just he's like me to writing wise, but I mean, cinematically and the acting was phenomenal. I mean, all of it. It was like perfectly casted to me. I mean, it was definitely an experience. I benched it within like 48 hours, I think. And I haven't seen it far after it came out to I want to say I was I think that was a postpartum binge for me. I think he was maybe just like, a few months old, maybe four months old or

Jackie Leonard 02:40
something? Yes. Yeah, I launched it. I think kind of later, it came out, I think in October, somewhere around that time, and I had kept hearing people talk about a show called made. And it was, and I thought it was M A D E. And I was like, okay, like, I'll keep an eye out for it. And then when I saw it, ma ID, I was like, oh, it's about a made or like, what's the show about the people are talking about and I just kept seeing, like articles pop up about it. And I just jumped in, and I did the same thing to I benched it. And it's like such a heavy show that like you normally maybe what want to binge. But I think I'm so anxious that I was like, I need to see what happens. Next, that's exactly how I was. Yeah, yeah.

Mona Ray 03:32
Good job. Oh, my gosh.

Jackie Leonard 03:34
Yeah. And you know, you mentioned the perfect casting. And that's maybe one of the first things we can discuss about the show is I found out later, like, kind of further into the show. And you said you found out after the fact that it's the actress who plays the main character, the protagonist, Alex, her mom in real life plays her mom on the show. Who's Paula on the show. It's Oh my gosh, no, I can't remember her name. Quality. Is it Margaret? Callie? Do you remember her name?

Mona Ray 04:06
I actually don't know her name.

Jackie Leonard 04:08
I'm gonna have to look that up now. Cuz, yeah. Drawing a Blank right now. But her mother is Andy McDowell, who was familiar to me. I don't really know what I've seen her in, but she was like a 90s 80s 90s kind of icon back in the day.

Mona Ray 04:22
So very recognizable. Yeah.

Jackie Leonard 04:25
And their dynamic now is that I know it's real. A real mother and daughter. Like, it's so powerful. You can see how it adds to that. intensity in the relationship on the show. I thought that was really well, you know, well done.

Mona Ray 04:38
Yes. I agree with you. Yeah.

Jackie Leonard 04:42
And I don't know what were your kind of thoughts on the, the relationship between these two characters. Alex is the the young, the young mom who is struggling and getting out of an abusive situation. And Paula is The mother of this this girl, what was like a scene or just an element of their relationship that you felt like you wanted to talk about more today or that you like, kind of really gravitated to when you were watching?

Mona Ray 05:14
Um, well, something that makes perfect, like, just ripple effect sense is the fact that she was parenting her parent, and then that she would end up in a narcissistic relationship as well, because essentially, she was, she was a daughter of a narcissistic parent. And I think that that's just so hyper realistic. Sorry. Look at this. Wow, what's that? Okay, yeah, I think I think that was so I don't know. Yeah, it really made for all the feelings I really love when they take real life stories, because it was based on a true story. And, you know, kind of fictionalized kind of fluff it up. But all the key elements are there in that way. And yeah, just really validated a lot, in my experience of watching it. Um, so yeah, I

Jackie Leonard 06:17
re watched it again this weekend. And one of the, like, dialogues that I wrote down, and this is further into the show, but she, Alex mentions to, there's a woman in the show who is at the domestic abuse shelter that she's staying at. And she says, Alex tells her I've been taking care of her since I was six, because she's about to leave and go to school, to college and take her daughter and she wants her mom to go and her mom's kind of doesn't have somewhere to to be she's, she's essentially homeless at this point in the show, and the woman that the caseworker or whatever her role is, she says, what would happen if you didn't like if you didn't take care of her anymore? And I just felt like, like, yeah, yeah, she like didn't even like I don't think she had ever been, like, told that like that. You don't have to take care of her. Yeah. And that was like such like that, like, got me in the gut, because it was just like, ah, that she's constantly on, she can't even take care of herself. She's struggling to take care of her daughter. And at the same time at the back of her head all the time is what's going on with my mom is my mom. Okay? And I just felt like that just really represented, how hard it's been for this per Alex's character to really to do what she needs to do. To take care of herself. Is there a scene because you mentioned that her mother Paula, who is she's, they say in the show that she's undiagnosed bipolar? Mm hmm. Is there a specific moment that you see, you know, Paula and Alex together that you felt felt like that's an example of her you know, that nice narcissistic abuse? Or her being a narcissist? Can you think of that just so that people on the show that are listening can like, understand what that is?

Mona Ray 08:05
Um, well, for one, I don't know if you remember when she was like, in the very beginning of the show, she's gonna go drop her off. And she says, she says something along the lines of like, a, it was like, I would love. It's not about her. She made it about like herself. It's not about the daughter. She was like, Yeah, I would love for her to see my life or something. I mean, it was very self centered dialogue. I can't really I should have rewatched it all the way. That Yeah,

Jackie Leonard 08:35
well, there's I'm trying to think because it's fresher in my head, probably. But there's a moment where I think you're talking about her young daughter and the young daughter's name is Maddie. The and she's like three years old, a little girl. And she keeps talking about how like, you know, when Alex drops Maddie off with her mom, she has nobody else to leave her with. And she drops her off with her mom. And Alex is late, she's running late. She gets there. And Paul is like, so upset. She's like, I have things to do I have this and this. She has the ability to understand what her daughter's going through. And she almost like resents her for it because Alex leaves the situation and she's like, why are you doing that? Like, why I would love to have somebody you know, that took care of me and all this stuff like that. Or she's constantly making it. She's constantly making it about how she suffered more. And I felt like that was a big one where Alex is talking about how she was abused, emotionally, and she's trying to explain it to her mom, like, this is emotional abuse. It's a thing like it's real. And Paula says something like, you know, basically like I've been you know, I've I'd be lucky to basically have that to me happened to me with all the things that have happened that your dad did and other people did and so she can't even empathize with her daughter in that moment. She can't be like, I know what that feels like. I've been through it. She was saying I've had worse like what You talking about you have not had nothing, you know. So I think that's it from what I understand about, you know, that narcissistic abuse the personality kind of thing. That's what encapsulates.

Mona Ray 10:14
Yeah. And it's really, it's, it's like, the worst part of the whole story is that like, it's like she has her mother there, but she's not there as like a support system. It's just extra baggage on her. And she's just like, if anything, just making it harder, you know, but then what makes it so real is that there are those moments where like, she does something nice for her, or she kind of surprises her. And it's like this tug and pull, like a tug of war with the relationships. So, you know, like when she paints the room, like when she finally gets an apartment, and like the mom had surprised her. By painting the room, I was like, Oh, you just want to like root for these characters so hard to just, like, be better, but then there's always some sort of obstacle. Yeah.

Jackie Leonard 11:03
Yeah, 100%. And I think that's they do such a good job of fleshing those people out with the time that they give the show with the 10 episodes, where there's like your split, you're torn in the same way that you feel like she might, the daughter might be feeling where you're kind of like, oh, like, she really does need a lot of help. This woman has nobody else but her daughter, of course, your daughter is going to help who wouldn't you know, who wouldn't want to help their mom. But then he, you know, right before that painting that she did, there was like, they had a whole blow up. And her mom was awful to her. So it was like, it was like almost that abusive cycle that you see. Because there were times and I don't want to say I wanted her to be with this guy that she was, you know, I forget the hurt on Sean, there you go. There were times that I like felt for him. I didn't necessarily feel like, Oh, they're a good age, they could make it work. But you just want to try and you know, you saw him like wanting to do better. Maybe it wasn't for the right reasons. And he needed a long road of recovery to get anywhere near you know, empathy. But you saw that he had an awful relationship with his mom, he said, you know, my mom did this to me too, so many times. And so you see the different experiences that he might have gone through as well as a child and feel for that part of him. So it's like they almost pull pull you in the same way she's pulled in because she's kind of like, oh, like he's trying or, or he did this nice thing for me. He's here for me when my mom needs help. But under that layer, you see where he's almost using that as an opportunity to take advantage of her. You know, like, oh, I can get her back in because I'm helping her with his her mom, you know, that

Mona Ray 12:45
was definitely like a trauma bond. And he's very much like, we are family see, like, we're all we got and like just that whole narrative that I was like,

Jackie Leonard 12:59
there was there was a moment there was a line that he said that really just like, caught me and like it made it really hard for me to ever really even see him any way other than an abuser. But like he said, at some point, he called her he said you are an emergency or something like that. Because she said, you know, this is an emergency, we need to do this. And he's like, you basically like your life is a mess. You're a mess. You're an emergency and I was just like, Oh, no. And you see how he just like broke her down like made her nothing like made her feel like she was nothing and

Mona Ray 13:32
God. My chest. Yeah. I mean, everything he said, I was like, I mean, I really want to meet the writers. Like I just want to be like, Okay, who will obviously writer? Yeah, all that was in the book, you know, but just the way that it was collaborated to be portrayed in film was just like, like you said, with the surreal images, like with her, like kind of sinking into the couch. Like there's some things that you just can't say and like as writers it's like a show don't tell experience. And just like that count scene was like, enough for me. I was like,

Jackie Leonard 14:07
ah, yeah, you know, what they did they I thought that they did such a good job at different moments to really show and play up the those feelings of like, sociation she had to when she went back to that trailer, and she sunk in the couch that was her just like, alright, like, I have to turn it off. Like, I can't think about anything else. I just have to basically survive. And she's in this tunnel and she can like barely hear, you know, what people are saying to her and like, as somebody who has had those moments, like it just I was like, I couldn't have like, that's the way it feels. And that

Mona Ray 14:46
feels Yeah, just so tired. Like, you can't even make any decisions anymore. You're like, alright, like you get to a point where you're just so tired of things not going the way that you need them to or the way that you would like them to. And with her I mean, she really She did. I mean, even down to like the WIC stuff and the food stamps and like the housing, I mean, she really had to like really reach. Oh, my chest like I was, like involved with this show.

Jackie Leonard 15:16
I think they this this show is almost like for people who are constantly saying, Well, why don't they do this? Why don't they do that? And it was it was showing you like, look at her she's trying to basically utilize every resource that's out there. And it's anytime she got anything any kind of assistance, it was so fragile. Like the what like she'd get an apartment and oh, it has like mold that's making on her like, yeah, there she she gets this amazing, like somebody's willing to do the rent assistance, and she gets this amazing place. So she her daughter can go to the nice school. And then like that weekend, it's I hated that is you know what I mean? You saw that every single time. She and that's so true. That's like that is what happens that I mean, I know people who've been you know, had to utilize these resources. I know single moms who've been you know, struggling with all that. That was my mom at one point, you know, I know what that looks like and how hard it is to first try to you know, reach out for help. And then even when you're given it even when they you're offered the help, it's not enough and it can easily get go away. And then something else of course happens. It's like a quicksand.

Mona Ray 16:28
Oh my gosh, when she when that whole thing with her apartment happened. I was like, I was so angry the whole time. Like That episode was probably one of the worst episodes because there was so many little factors like, her mom was like, oh, Sean, you look so good. Like and just being this like, and then you know, and she's trying to be cool. Like, she's trying to be chill, she's trying to relax, and she absolutely cannot relax. Because that was the whole reason. They were able to do a party, because the landlords were like, yeah, have a party do it. And like, her whole spirit was like, no, like, we can't, like it's just it's for a child like I don't want to I don't want to do anything like this. And then like I'm it's so sensitive, all that is so sensitive. She can't even like relax. So yeah, when she did finally get to that scene of like, just caving in and going back to the trailer. I was like, Man, that is. That is so true.

Jackie Leonard 17:26
One it really showed you like that going back. I mean, it wasn't her only option. But it's like, look at all these times that she's tried to you know, she like she was she was tired. You could just see that she was just so broken at that point, like her mom after her mom had to be committed and all the like re traumatize. retriggered all these things. And then I was like, no one's there for you. Like that's it. This is somebody who's basically she's comatose at that point. And he's just leading her back in it was. And so, so many times I've heard the narrative like why do people go back? Why do people go back? There's places you can go. And it's like, Well, look, this is why, you know, this is what happens.

Mona Ray 18:08
Yeah, and the whole seven times thing is very true. It definitely takes that many times. Yeah, away from an abuser. And I think at the seed of all of it is definitely just like trauma. Like everyone has their own traumas and someone who

Mona Ray 18:28
can you wait, baby? Of course now whose life is my seven year old?

Mona Ray 18:34
Hi, sweetie. You helping mom. contraption. Okay, baby. I'll look at it in a second. Okay, I'm almost done. Okay, maybe I'll look at it in a second. Okay. I will look at it in a second. Okay. Yeah, Dad's at work. So. Definitely been me. Where's he? Sorry. Show me deposit. I can pause it for a second. You can take a break. Yes.

Mona Ray 19:12
Yes, yes. Can you know what made me cry instantly? What was that? Like? Oh, my, when she's sitting in the office, it's like right after the first abuse thing where she's like, I gotta just get out of here. And she's sitting across from that. What are they called? I'm like a caseworker. caseworker. Yeah. And she's like, she's like, so are you working? And she's like, No, you know, and she's giving her this whole interview thing. And she's like, well, what are you good at? And like, the only thing that she is replaying in her head is like her with her daughter and just like being a good mom. And I was like, I'm like tearing up thinking about that right now. It's like, it's like, Why do I have to prove myself beyond this like, because one of the things that you see these you see this? See my eyes like

Jackie Leonard 19:59
I had I try not to go there.

Mona Ray 20:03
It's so hard because I remember when I was a single mom, and childcare is single handedly, like, the most difficult thing to get, um, you know, when you don't have like a lot of support around you, or when you don't come from just like a wealthy family with, or just, you know, just anybody that's like, that can spend that amount of time that's needed for you to work to sustain your life. Like, you know, so it's, I, I just wish mothers had more. Like, we didn't have to, I don't know, I work so hard.

Jackie Leonard 20:40
I wish we had a, you know, a society or just a culture that when you knew that somebody was a mom, like, that was like telling somebody, they were a doctor, you know what I mean? Where they have all these skills, like, I already know, I don't even have to, like, make them say it. Like I just know, deep down like, Oh, I could hire this person because they know how to do all these things. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I that should be the that should be the expectation, the assumption as soon as you meet somebody who's a mom, like, oh, instead of like, what can you do?

Mona Ray 21:11
Yeah. It's like when I say I'm a stay at home mom, there's still like a thing around it. That's like, Oh, so you just stay at home all day. I'm a stay at home mom. Like, first of all, I'm a chef. I'm an educator. I nurture calm environment, like when you're whenever you go to apply for like a daycare specialist or whatever. It's like things you can say when you have mom experience to like daycare. Yeah, yeah. That is actually what I'm doing to right now. My supplemental income I work at a daycare, like part time, like a few days a week. Yeah. No, it's good for my kids, because then they can kind of like see other kids. Right? School and stuff. But I agree with you. I just there was a little bit. Like, if I had it my way, I would just put some sort of daycare in like every workplace like, like in the back, like that way. Your kids are still near. You don't have to like, get a phone call. I have to leave like you can still kind of like micromanage them at the same time. I know that sounds like a fantasy, you know, but I mean, you've been IKEA, right? You know IKEA. Right? Right. Yeah, there's a good daycare down there.

Jackie Leonard 22:20
Yeah. And they got the like, I know. Yeah, well, you know, they're starting to do that. Because they recognize that like, being able to do anything at the same time as watching your kids is almost impossible. So it's like, for consumerism like to buy things like okay, yeah, well watch your kids. But to get a break, no. I know. Yeah. But yeah,

Mona Ray 22:46
deeply rooted in me that whole that scene of her just like spinning her daughter around and like,

Jackie Leonard 22:53
yeah, you know, I, I was, I thought you were going somewhere else. I thought you were gonna mention, you know, when they, you know, they do this thing at different moments in the show where the person that she's talking to says something like, what they're really thinking or what she feels like, they're really thinking, like, when she was talking to the caseworker. She was like, I forget what it was. But then she was asking her, but then when she went to the grocery store, there was a moment where she's like, having to pay with the, you know, the assistance card. Oh, yeah. It was like, pour, pour, you know, I love and it was like, you really kind of got into like that, like, she felt so much shame. She felt like all these eyes on her people were scoffing. And you know, that happens. I have seen that. On top of that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, my dad, there was times in my, I mean, I came from a family of, you know, my mom had six other kids in me. And so there were times that we were on assistance. And I remember my mom would have to, like, people would give things and we would have to go and like, there was like, you know, free clothes that you would go and get and just, yeah, I remember as a child, even feeling like people were judging us. And then think about the parents having to do that. And then the people that are around you that are having those thoughts. I mean, all of those things felt very true to true to form I remember, you know, like, I have a very visceral memory of being at like, target and hearing some older women behind us saying, you know, basically, like this woman can't, you know, control herself and why she having so many kids, she's probably on like, you know, assistance and stuff. And, you know, the reality was, we only had to do that. Yeah, the reality was, we only did that for a small period of time. But regardless, you know, those are the judgments that people make. Those are the things that that people in these situations have to experience all the time. And, and and still you have to like, accept the help you need people, you know what I mean? It's like, you need people but then at Same time, some of those people are having those thoughts of you. Yeah, let me donate this for you. But I'm going to look down on you. Let me let me help you out. But yeah, right. And it's like the guy. It's like that that guy that helps Alex. That's her like, you, you get the sense that he like they tried. He wanted to date her in the past and didn't so he's like, season in to be like the knight in shining armor. Oh. What was his name? Was it like Nate was in May? I don't remember. No recall them, Nate or something.

Mona Ray 25:34
I think it was Nate.

Jackie Leonard 25:35
Yeah,

Mona Ray 25:36
that was so disgusted by it. That's also so very true as well, like just the conditional help. From like, the opposite gender, you know?

Jackie Leonard 25:47
Yeah. And he's just like, I mean, he's basically like, love bombing her in a way. Yeah, like giving Oh, you need help. Let me here have this car, you're helping me out. And then it was just like, slowly becoming more and more things where he was, like, latching onto her life in a way that. And I mean, this happens so many times. And so many times the women are blamed for it, but it's like, she, she very well could have ended up with him. Because it was like, okay, like, this guy is stable, he's got a house, he's gonna help me, you know, take care of myself might send my kids when I school. Like, that's no

Mona Ray 26:24
real. That's why I loved Alex so much. Like, she's like, the integrity was there. She was like, No, I need to do this. Like she was fighting for herself so hard. Because yeah, that's something you say to yourself, you're like, well, he's stable. And until you're in those situations, and you don't want to, when you're when you're coming out of something so difficult. You don't want to just like kind of fall into what's easy. Because, yeah, because it's already easy to fall back with someone that you're familiar with. And

Jackie Leonard 26:54
well, it showed how that was very much still her if she were to go with this other guy that was still very much her continuing the cycle of her mother, you know, like jumping from one side. But she didn't. Yeah,

Mona Ray 27:07
that too.

Jackie Leonard 27:09
Because mom, you know, was in an awful situation. This guy scammed her. And how long was it? It was like, I don't know, a few days, it seemed like, and she's already with somebody else. That's equally awful. Yeah, and talking about, you know, how he's so much better. And this and that. And it was almost like, you could see that she had all these examples of like, nope, not going to do that.

Mona Ray 27:34
Like she was she was really trying to break the generational, the generational trauma, and really just break out of all the cycles that she was in. Yeah, I was gonna start talking about something and then we kind of like, veered. And then I was like, What was that again? Like, um, I mean, it's so real. All of it was so real. And so validating, like the whole, I mean, even going back to like, having the assistants and I liked them to show how they had like, they would show how much money she had, and just how much like a sponge. Like, she had to like Penny pitch on every single little thing. I like that representation as well, too. Because there was a moment in time with me and my daughter when she was, I want to say not even a year old yet she was walking. But she wasn't a year old yet. And we got to that point where I have like, $9 to my name. And I had gotten scammed, because I was just so desperate for income that something that a stable person would realize, it's not like, you know, this isn't like a real thing. I was just so tired of fighting. I was like, this has to be it, you know? And then yeah, I was in that cycle for some time. I was a single mom for like, probably the first four years of her life. You know, and I, I had a boyfriend in some of that time, but it wasn't like a step dad type of vibe. You know, it was like, No, this is my boyfriend. Like, it was very separate. But yeah, and then I met my husband. And we got another baby. And I when that show came out, I was like, I love that we're doing this too because I was so hungry to talk to somebody about it. I was like, Who else felt so validated with the show? And I have a few um, I have just a few mom friends on my network that I was able to have those conversations with you know, and that was the main thing was just like every little thing kind of getting in her way like what you said with it being so fragile and that's what makes it so hard to watch but you have to like you have to know she's gonna be okay. Like you're really rooting for her in the show.

Jackie Leonard 30:00
Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciate and thank you so much for just sharing your personal experience and why you connect so much to the show because they're things that mirror your own life at times. And as somebody who like, I have very close friends, I mean, at one point, I had a mom, a friend of mine, who was a single mom, who had no family support system, really, who was struggling and having a lot of the things go on that I saw on the show, she lived with me, so I saw it very intimately, but it wasn't, you know, like, I didn't physically have those experiences as a mom with the child. And so I wondered like, this feels like it's, like, does a really good job of representing this, but I don't know. So I, I just like love hearing you kind of say that. Yeah, like, you felt like, there was so many moments that did a great job. And I like that it ends with her, you know, having like, so much hope that there's so much hope at the end for her. Because obviously, that's not often the case. That's not always that's not very often true. I mean, we heard the stat it takes at least seven times for somebody to like successfully, like exit a, an abusive relationship. And then of those people, do they ever do they maybe go back to a different abusive situation? We don't know. You know. So it's, it's not those numbers don't represent reality, like in real life in real life, we don't often get that happy story at the end. But it is possible, it does happen. Like, you know, here you are here, as somebody who you know, on this show, we know it's based on, you know, a book that has some true elements, right. And so we have to be able to hold on to some of that hope to and see that it is possible and see what it takes for that to happen. It takes a lot this woman struggled. She had a lot of privilege. She had a lot of supports, even when she was at her lowest. She had, you know, a friend that reached out and really connected her to a lawyer who get you know, not everybody gets that.

Mona Ray 31:54
Yeah, that was kind of crazy. I thought that was I thought that was really good character development on what was her name? Regina, Regina, I thought his character development was next to Alex is my favorite. And I think it was really interesting that you got to see, I think part of the victory was that her mom kind of stayed the same. Like when Alex was like, come with me. You know, even after all of that, she was like, come with me. Like, she was about to take it on. And then here she is at another guy's house. It was just kind of like, I think that difference that separation marked, like the break of a generational, you know, trauma essentially. Like, that's not my concern anymore. She's gonna take care of herself, like, cried for her at the end, too. And she's like, on top of the hill with her daughter, I was like, Oh, she like saved up for her own car, even though it wasn't shiny or new or anything like it was hers. And that whole Regina thing was actually pretty crazy. There are people like that, that kind of find you where you're at who are supposed to be there. I think that's also something that's pretty divine. About, um, I guess just life in general, that I feel like there are people that kind of entered my life when I was in some pretty rough situations back then when I was a single mom, and like they, they're just like angels like they appear. And they're really there for you. And like, no one was there before and then they leave. But you guys are so cool. And it was just it's like very much divine, I think.

Jackie Leonard 33:36
Yeah, you know, and that I love that she was a character in this in this show. I think she was created just for the show. And from what I read, it wasn't somebody that was in the book. And so but I love that she was there because you saw so many examples of people that were helping but we're taking advantage of her because she was vulnerable. But there like you said there are people that are good and hear about a single mom and are like I want to help you and I have no like agenda. And and in some ways to Regina like Alex helped Regina like we got to see different types of moms in this show. That Nessus that we're going through all sorts of different things. Regina is characters that an extremely wealthy black woman who is you know, has had such a hard fertility struggle. And her husband basically leaves her right before she's gonna I think she had a surrogate have a baby. And she's alone. She's a single mom now and really struggling and they kind of bond through that experience.

Mona Ray 34:40
Yeah, the the balance between them. I really loved that scene of Regina when she has the baby and she's just in the car. And she's like, I have to pee. I have to pee, like just wash the bait. There's like, she's like, I haven't eaten. There's like spit up all over her. And she's like, I haven't slept in like three days. I was like oh So my second was,

Jackie Leonard 35:02
it took me back and then she's like, I can't do this. I like basically like, she's like, I have to give the baby back essentially. Just take a nap.

Mona Ray 35:12
I love how much Alex always lit up when talking about her daughter. And even when she couldn't fight anymore for her own life, she still decided to be there for her daughter. Like she literally sacrificed her life like she could have very well, you know, left her daughter with the gram Sean's mom, because we saw that too. Like Sean, it was Sean never watched the baby. It was Sean's mom.

Jackie Leonard 35:37
And he got custody at some point temporary custody. That

Mona Ray 35:41
line that she said with we can't afford food, but you can't afford a lawyer that was like you can't see me right now. But I'm

Jackie Leonard 35:52
like, Yeah, I know those stories, too.

Mona Ray 35:56
I that is that's, that is pure. That is that's also narcissistic behavior, I think because it's very much like you're investing into your own image. And the whole narrative. I'll never forget that moment when they're like in the courtroom. And she's like, your parents are here. And he's like, they know how hard it's been for me. And she's just like, flabbergasted, like, She cannot even find the words. She's like, Oh, it's been really hard for you like I was. I was screaming, I did the same as you. I watched it on my iPad with like, headphones, and my husband's like, what are you? Like, leave me to my devices? All right.

Jackie Leonard 36:36
Well, there's so much so many people have sympathy for Shawn. So many people, and they see her as the person that caused all of this. And that's so, so problematic. It is very real. And I think that was good that they brought in a character that wasn't like super, like ugly. Like they tried to get like some charming type guy to be well, they always are there because they are we like in the past. You know, you watch like, a law and order. And it's always like these creepy guys. And you're like, that's the reality.

Mona Ray 37:10
It wouldn't be it wouldn't be like a thing, if ever if they were creepy and ugly and not alluring, and charming and handsome. Like it wouldn't even be a thing.

Jackie Leonard 37:21
Well, and even this thing, dad, Alex's dad, I feel like that was so it's such a powerful thing, because the show did a really good job of showing you like a little bit of these characters in the beginning. And you're like, okay, they don't seem that bad. Why like her dad, right? You're like, Oh, her dad, you know, he's got this nice house, why isn't she staying there? He's offering to help her and even she's kind of like, slowly like, well, you know, maybe Okay, and yeah, you're getting like, layer by layer. And then you understand what's going on here. And you see her dad who has so much sympathy for her, her ex partner, and is trying to help him. Yeah, and the thing that really got me and made me feel like gosh, like she just got has to get away was when she was begging her dad to help testify because he witnessed the moment when he would, you know? And it was like, I didn't see anything I saw, you know, a couple struggling. And, you know, he's

Mona Ray 38:19
who doesn't struggle? Like I mean, that's so time. Yeah. That was my, he's working

Jackie Leonard 38:23
on his sobriety. And you're, you know, making him work. And that's not good for him. And it was, it was just like, you know, so

Mona Ray 38:32
many layers of problems. Like, there's so many layers of like, let's just peel all these layers back real quick. Like, I think one of the key elements of like, her victory was definitely because she could have stayed with her dad, or she could have said, you know, in any of the things, but in that scene that you were talking about one of the surreal moments when she chooses to crawl in that dark, scary space, that one of the houses that they're cleaning, and she chooses, that was just very symbolic, like writing wise, like her choosing to go in there and just kind of like, relive that moment. And then she sent herself into like, like, panic attack with the realization but that's a key element to growth, like having to sit there in that in that scariness that dark. I know. It's not a word. Rioters here like,

Jackie Leonard 39:24
hey, we take liberties with language, I think

Mona Ray 39:27
yeah, yeah, yeah. Sit there and just like, face it all and really eat it all up. And if she didn't do that, I don't think there'd be a victory, you know. So I think that's why some of those scenes were Yeah,

Jackie Leonard 39:44
they said so much. You know, I'm glad you brought that up that like is like the therapy almost. It's like that's like you sitting with it. You know, that's unpacking you know, why did you have this a panic attack. She was able to like transport like, through that emotion, that feeling that she had going back to When she was a child, and she was hiding in cupboards, yeah, her dad was violent and abusive with her own mom. And hadn't ever like really thought about it before. And I mean, I love that they, they were able to show both dynamics and how they affected her because, you know, it was it could have been very easy to see her mom and be like, Oh, that's why that's why she's doing all these things. And it wasn't just her mom, it wasn't just her mom, it was this site this this, you know, yes. I plasticity the site was born into and it that to two to tango, basically. Yeah. That dynamic for her. It wasn't just that her mom was crazy and ran off and was, you know, unstable. There were a lot of other elements to it. And they did a really good job of showing how complicated that can be.

Mona Ray 40:48
Yeah, I'm definitely like a mental health advocate. And whenever people tell me certain things, I definitely read between the lines, you know, and I asked, like, I feel like maybe different kinds of questions like, I don't know, that's kind of a can of worms. But I the show did an amazing job of like unpacking in a way that wasn't. I mean, every moment that something happened, you're like, that makes sense. That makes sense. Like everything kind of connected in from beginning to end, you know, so I really want to read the book, I need to go, I need to go read the book.

Jackie Leonard 41:27
Yeah, I'm interested in seeing you know how it's different. I read like a description. And I wasn't sure if the abusive relationship was as big in the book. I couldn't tell if it was mostly just because she was struggled financially. And that was the big part of the story, because it said that she came from a pretty like, middle class family. But then, because she had this child and was single was single, that there were all these things that happened that made her struggle. And so you know, that'll be interesting to read. I want to read it as well. And I know people who have that really liked it. So recommend to anybody listening. If you have watched made or not, you should check out the book, because it'll be a different, a different experience. I hope people that maybe don't have a connection, personally to this type of story. Also had those feelings where like, it was like, Oh, that does make sense. Like I understand now. Yeah, like that was achieved through through making this.

Mona Ray 42:27
Yeah. And there's, there's such an art to it. Because obviously, like, like we said, she had to sit in that scary place, and face her demons and her trauma and kind of like relive certain things in order to grow from there. But I mean, just looking at it now, in this day and age, I know some friends that are like, they're very strong, independent, hard working women, but just the state of our economy, like some things we just can't change, like a studio apartment in Orlando, Florida right now. It's like $1,400. You know, and for a single mom, and child care, you know, there are certain things that like if if things were just kind of shifted around. Like, I think a lot of strong independent, mothers would be a little bit more okay with being strong, independent, single mothers, like, I don't know if that makes sense. And then it comes down to also the men. And I just, I just want men to know that they can cry if there's any men listening. I feel like that's just like the seat of that, like,

Jackie Leonard 43:33
sit with another podcast. I

Mona Ray 43:35
was like, If men just knew that they could cry. And if everyone wrote, I said this on the last podcast, if everyone just wrote, and men could cry, the world would be a better place. Because writing does so much for for a person for a soul. You know, even if you never get published or anything. It's just so good for you.

Jackie Leonard 43:54
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a good place to take it. One last thing I wanted to say I was so happy that with Alex and Paula, you know, there was a moment when Paula, her mom said, Oh, I'll come with you. She. So Alex got into a writing program and got a scholarship and was going to do housing. And Paula said, Okay, I'll come with you. And I was kind of like, I don't really like part two. Part of me was like, Well, you know, that could be good for both of them. But then another part of me was like, I just don't know, like, I don't think Paul is ready to change and that could just ruin things for Alex. And so even though it was hard to see her off to leave her mom and not know what was going to happen to her, it was like this is what's best for her and her daughter like I'm glad they're going and going to figure this out on their own. Yes. But at the end of this show, they really I mean throughout we know that that Alex enjoys writing that's like her thing that she had gotten into a program for writing and had to you know, drop it she got pregnant. But we see that she applies to this program and gets in and at the very I think it's the last episode they showed her in group therapy leading a writing lesson. Yeah, I just love that it ends there. And that it was through writing and her finding her voice, that she really had this happen. She was able to escape because I feel like that's so symbolic. You know? Yes. I'll read you the quote that she says to like the group. When she's talking about writing, she says, I find that it is a lot easier to write the truth than to say it out loud. No one can take writing away from you. Nobody can tell you that you're wrong. Or your words are wrong, because they're not your right. And your and your words are fucking right. Because they're yours. And I was just like, Oh, gosh. Yes. And that's, that's it. That's like, that's what it's all about. It's like when you Right? Like, especially when you're going through hardship or on your place where you are in an abusive situation, or you feel like you don't have a voice or any agency. Like, when you can write it down, you can see what's wrong. And you also like, have the truth, right? They're like, No, that's yours. Like, nobody can tell you. You know, you're you're understanding things differently, or it's wrong, or it's different than what's reality. Like, that's, that's yours. And it's it's like when you have nothing to know that you can always have your writing.

Mona Ray 46:20
Yes, yes. Oh.

Jackie Leonard 46:24
I mean, this is

Mona Ray 46:25
the part where we would clink wine glasses. Yeah, just, we just throw that back for that one. Because, yes, yeah.

Jackie Leonard 46:35
That is it. Yeah. I mean, it has saved me. And I felt like, you know, I couldn't go to other people I didn't have you know, and to see that. That's what the show ended on. I feel like it showed people like you, you don't have to be a writer. Like, look at all these people here sharing their story. It was so beautiful. And it it allowed us to see like, there are so many other stories that we haven't heard. This was one we focused on, but there are others.

Mona Ray 47:05
Yeah. So many. Yeah. You're like, we might as well be drinking wine right now.

Jackie Leonard 47:15
I'm like I could right now. Yes.

Mona Ray 47:20
After reflecting on that show, to the producer, and the Director. Thank you. Thank you so much for that experience. To the writer. What's her name? Stephanie.

Jackie Leonard 47:35
It's Stephanie land is the Yeah.

Mona Ray 47:38
I I just pray that she doesn't have to wish for anything else. There was for life. I mean, oh, my goodness.

Jackie Leonard 47:46
Right. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think I you can tell that there was a lot of intention put in making this you know, it wasn't something like, oh, let's make it dramatic and do this. Like there was it was handled with a lot of grace. Yeah, I thought it was it was just brilliantly done. And I recommend anybody who hasn't seen it and doesn't feel like we spoiled everything. I know. Yeah. Don't like even though we talked about I feel like there's so much more. I mean, I I I have memories of watching it. And I'm like, Oh, yeah. And even when you brought up like her going in that little like that little closet cubby thing and having that episode like, yeah, and there's just so much to take from it. And it's not like a fun washing experience. It's not so no, like, gonna like, you know, have a ball like watching but it's it's important. It's something I

Mona Ray 48:41
I posted on Instagram. When I was done binging it. I was like, Who has seen the show? Like, I need to talk about it, right? Like when that moment happened for me. There were a lot of people in my DMs like I had to stop, like I couldn't want like, it was just too hard. And I was like, Okay,

Jackie Leonard 48:59
I know, I'm always the person that's like, well, you need to do it anyway. Sorry.

Mona Ray 49:03
Okay, so go bad and press play.

Jackie Leonard 49:08
And reality. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, some people may not be able to binge it. And I think I would, I would say if it's hard for you, you can take breaks, but it's definitely something that is, you know, I think there are so many different moments that you have to find there's has to be an opportunity in that watching that you're like, oh, I can relate to that. Yeah, and I think that's important. Gosh, I was gonna say something. See, I could just go on, I could just go on and on and on and on. I guess we'll kind of like, start to wind down and then there. But, you know, like I said, it's just it's such a good show. I think it it's one of those that you know, anybody can always say like, oh, there could be this and there could be that done to anything. But especially now and I'm really looking at all the different things that are out there that we're watching that Show moms. There are not enough examples of like people making an honest effort to show like something real. So when there is I'm like, let's celebrate it, please.

Mona Ray 50:10
Yeah, yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. So I think it has inspired me. Yeah. It has truly inspired me to like, be more proud, I guess not proud. But I guess you know, your voice, you know, you have these things. There's this quote that I really love. And it's, it's something like, okay, bear with me. It's something along the lines of like, the wound is, okay. I don't want to butcher it. It's right here. Here it is, okay. Pain teaches you how to help others through it. The wound is where the light enters, those are two different quotes. And I was just, you know, so you go through these things. And it's, I think that's what Art and Writing is all about. You know,

Jackie Leonard 51:05
one, the advice, I always I heard this advice somewhere. And I like to repeat it, because I work with a lot of people who are trying to write and trying to figure out what they feel comfortable or able to write because writing can be, you know, it can be a, it can take you down some dark paths, right. You know, if you're tackling something that's really heavy, it can be something really hard to do. And so I, I've heard the advice, and I like to repeat it is they say right from the scar, not the wound. And so it's like, sometimes it takes I mean, I say journal, no matter what, I think people should be journaling all the time. But when you feel like I want to share a story with somebody, I want to write something and put it out there in the world. i The advice I like to say is right from the scar, if you feel like it's it, because it's given you time to heal a little bit, it's giving you some time to have a little bit of a distance from the experience. Instead of when you're white writing while you're bleeding, it's like and then I put it out there and other people are reading it, it almost can re traumatize people. And so I always like to say like, if you give it you can write it down now, let it sit there. And you can share it when you feel ready. And when you feel like it's not something that, you know, is giving you that feeling of like fear, like you're looking for external validation for what you share. But it's so important to show these kinds of stories, because as you see, you know, it took somebody opening up about their very painful experience for you to feel that connection. And that might inspire you to write from, you know, a similar in a similar way, right?

Mona Ray 52:37
Yeah, I do struggle with what you're saying with kind of like, I don't want to say too much. I don't want to, because you always wonder about like, you know, the writer who wrote made you kind of wonder if like, the abuser, like, has seen how famous she got off of that. Or you know what I mean? Like, there's just certain things that I, yeah, better kind of, you have to? Yeah.

Jackie Leonard 53:05
Well, and I always say, you know, I, that I was in a situation that I would say was definitely abusive. And I've thought about writing about that experience was very not your typical experience. And I haven't seen stories like that before. And so I was like, Well, I want to write about it, because there are probably other people who've had this kind of experience. And that was one of like, the first things that I thought was like, Well, what if they read it? Or what if they hear about it, and then they're gonna, like, Come Come find me. Like, those are the things that I think about as a writer. And so that's another when you said that you feel like proud. It's like, anytime we put those stories out there, these kind of stories, especially, like, there's a level of courage and like, even just to continue your life and to live happily is like scary sometimes. And so you should feel because it feels like it can be taken away so many times when you're you've been a victim in different security fragile, like the show. Yeah. Right. And so I just, I think sometimes we give ourselves a hard time about like, Oh, we don't as artists are like, I need to put this out there. I need to do this. Yeah, but I I've had the grace now to know that like when I'm ready to or when it's if it's time when it'll come you know, it'll it'll, it'll be out there. Or it'll just live in a book that I never share with anybody and that's okay, too. Yes,

Mona Ray 54:32
yes. Oh, my God word for word. Yes. Yeah, I same exact word for word. I mean, people can change people can grow and there are more I love the day and age that we're in with, you know, with mental health awareness and with you know, people just wanting to be more compassionate and nicer to each other. People are giving each other more grace these days, I think I think there's a lot. I mean, you walk around anywhere, like, it's just, there's just more of I don't know how to say that because other things crossed my mind as well, at the same time that I was talking about this, but But yeah. Yeah.

Jackie Leonard 55:20
I do have a question for you just before we go, because this was one thing about the show that I was like, Is this true? Like, I felt I had a hard time understanding. And obviously, it can't be 100% realistic, but I was waiting for, I was waiting for her daughter to like, have a temper tantrum or a meltdown and Alex to like, lose her patience or not to like, you know, go overboard, but just even as moms like, I just was like, she's trying to like, leave or go somewhere quickly, or she's late for work. And her daughter was just so like, okay, like, you know, throughout the end, she was a three year old. So she was little, but I was like, I don't know, that my son would attend. Like, my son would have been like, no, no, or, you know, having a meltdown in the grocery store. I, I kind of wanted to see like, the struggle of just raising a little kid. Also in that, because that adds another layer to already all the stress that she was going through. And they didn't really show that and obviously personalities and kids are different, but I was like, I don't know, like that would have been a lot harder for me. No,

Mona Ray 56:18
no, let me tell you something. I don't know how I know I used the word divine earlier. But it's just something about, like, the universe. Like, is rarely so lazy. Like, my daughter. I never had any issues with her. Like when I was parenting when I was a single mom, when we were couch hopping, when we were living off of ramen noodles. I mean, same thing. She was she was an angel. And like, I think, I think things happen like that for a reason. You know, like, the universe. God knows what the universe knows, like, I don't know if you're a spiritual, spiritual person or not. But I really felt that. I was like, wow, I mean, she slept through the night. I never had to get under I was also really young. I was like, well, not really, I was 21. And we kind of grew up together. Like, she's always been like, my best pal. You know, I never. I mean, if anything, it's like, more so now that she's kind of coming into, like, you know, I'm like, married and, and she has a little brother now. And things are more like, you know, it's I really do think the universe knows, like, when you don't have support, it's so it's so bizarre. Like, and you know, how they say, babies can see like, angels and stuff, or like, I think I had a lot of support that just wasn't. So you didn't? Yeah, yeah. Couldn't be the support, but she could and I don't know, it was I so that's my experience. Um,

Jackie Leonard 57:54
see, I don't know, I and I, I thought that as I was, like, I had that initial criticism, like, I was like, I want to see this and, and then the second time I watched it, I was like, You know what, like, that was, like, the situation is very different. You know, like, and I love the way you said that I love the way that you shared that, like, the universe kind of knows. Like, there's things that help like, if anything, if Alex could get help in any way it was going to try you know, and it tried through, like, let's have this little baby girl be a little easier so that she can get where she needs to go and not have like, lose her mind. Yeah, in the car, or whatever, you know. Yeah. You know, just, I don't know, it just took me aback because I, that was the way I was always described as a little bit like that. I was the easiest and never caused any problems. I was just like, Oh, this guy.

Jackie Leonard 58:54
I mean, I think you're really right. Like, I think kids know, and I think they're, like you said the universe knows that. You know, this is, this is the time to to be the best that I can be. So that mom you know can can make it and so yeah, I didn't think I was gonna thank you so much for

Mona Ray 59:13
thanks. Thank you. i Yeah, I just I get flashbacks of her. Like, just being like, it's okay. Mommy, you know, they're they're so sweet. And they're so pure, and they don't like and you're going through the worst of the worst of the worst. And you're just like, living out of your car. And they're just like, it's okay mommy. And it is cuz they say it is and you're just like, it is okay. Because I have you and oh,

Jackie Leonard 59:39
you know that. They're so resilient, you know? And it's like, it's more it's less about the circumstances and more about the feelings and it's like, feel like they're safe with you and they've got what they need. Like it doesn't matter what's going on. And I feel like I don't know I've always had this sensitivity to single moms probably because from what I It came from, but like, you know, like you said, just people just need to be more kind. I think about moments like, there was a time I was working at Starbucks, and I was a shift supervisor. And there was a mom, who was a single mom. And she's like, she asked if she could bring her kid to work, she had to open up at 4am. And I didn't even think twice about it. And like, years later, I was like, Oh, God, like, technically, you can get in a lot of trouble for that. And it just was something that we were able to do. And her kid just sat on the couch while we worked. And we made it, you know, and I use that example, just because it's like, all the things that, that I like, I struggle with child care now being a married woman with, you know, even when I had one kid, like finding people to help out, yeah, in the last minute, or whatever. And it's not lost on me that in so many other situations, it's, it's like, impossible, or you have to accept childcare from people that aren't, you know, ideal. And like, the judgment that we have for moms for having to do these things. It's just, I think people just really need to, I don't know, try to exercise like, just because you wouldn't do that. Just because your life doesn't look like that. What would you do in this situation? Yeah, what would you do? You know, yeah, we're not getting paid to stay at home. We're not getting paid to just be moms. So

Mona Ray 1:01:24
24/7 is 24/7. And like, it's so it's so interesting, because I can't remember my life before I had her. You know, it's like, what was I even doing? Like, I'm just, you know, and there's this like, great, big love that, like, enters your body when you have a baby? I mean, I don't know about you. But I mean, when you did you, did you have a C section by any chance? Or did you give birth? Now a birth

Jackie Leonard 1:01:53
vaginally? Yeah,

Mona Ray 1:01:55
you um, how long was your labor? I know, this is probably like, I can't Oh, gosh,

Jackie Leonard 1:01:59
this was because I had two home births. And my son, my first child was my son. I had a berry like, it's called. Oh, my God, like, No, it was like a very fast labor and birth. Like, I basically delivered him by myself. Oh yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. My second was a lot more quote unquote, normal, but also pretty short in terms of labor experiences. But my friend who I said, her son, and she lived with me for a time. Yeah. When I was like, I was like, 23. And she was like, 25. And single mom and me, like, we would joke because we had the same name, or both Jackie. Oh, we were like Jackie Wah, Jackie, to her son basically had to Jackie's and we. But I was there for her when she gave birth in a hospital. And I got to wear the daddy bracelet.

Mona Ray 1:03:10
Oh, my gosh, yes.

Jackie Leonard 1:03:13
So So yeah, so I've experienced, you know, other types of labor. As a, you know, somebody's a support person. But but Yeah, mine were very not your typical, I guess I would say,

Mona Ray 1:03:27
Yeah, I mean, I was saying that to say like, you know, you go through, like just the symbolism of like, you know, going through labor and going through childbirth, and how it's, it's so painful. And then you give birth and just like, whatever hormone that is, like, it just goes away with it. I mean, you see your baby and like it, what pain, but then you live with a certain kind of pain that's called like, mom worry, like, oh, gosh, you're not a mom, you don't understand what that is. Like, like, literally you're, you know, you're also gifted these. I think it's for security measures, like you pretty much see every single little thing that could go wrong. And it's like, hard to live with. And then you basically devote your life to making sure that none of that should happen. It's hard. That's that also comes with that great big love. You know, I think it's like we were talking about the universe and the seesaw and the balance and everything. It's like, huh, yeah, there's

Jackie Leonard 1:04:24
a reason why we have these like, instincts and thoughts and my we go from being very real, you realize how much more selfish or at least how different your life was before? Yes, but like, I, I can't remember if I said this in a podcast episode, or if I wrote it down. But basically, I had a moment where I went, I was able to be away from my kids for, you know, a 24 hour period. And it had been so long I had been dreaming of it. And I did it and I was like, this isn't the same as before I had kids before. cuz I'm still worrying about them as, like wanting to call them I looking at their pictures like I'm not able to like, I'm never gonna go back to like the bliss that was I just have to worry about me.

Mona Ray 1:05:13
No, no, that'll probably same thing happened to me recently not vacation but me and my husband finally got a date night like after I mean I'm talking about like it had been several months before I felt okay. And then the whole time we're on this date we're talking about our kids, we're like talking about these things that the other one wasn't there for about our kids. And like, I was like, this is this is horrible. And then we went to the store and like got diapers and formula and like, like, oh my, alright, well. This was fun.

Jackie Leonard 1:05:49
Exactly. That's like, even like what I do. I'm like, I'm talking about I talk about motherhood, when I'm

Mona Ray 1:05:59
Yep, full time, job

Jackie Leonard 1:06:00
life as we know, it is not the same. But it also like you talked about, like the immense love and just, I mean, it goes without saying, but it's like, obviously, it's worth it. You know, but it's like, it's such a, it's such a trip. It's such a trip to explain to somebody who doesn't have that. So grateful. Well, I've definitely I've definitely got over what I thought we were gonna go over, but I really enjoyed this conversation with you, and just all the different directions that we went in. I know, our special guests earlier and all. I think

Mona Ray 1:06:39
the beginning of this conversation was kind of like, you could kind of tell that I was like, a bit scattered. I was like, No, I can do this. And then yeah,

Jackie Leonard 1:06:47
well, you know what, that's a that's another thing I would like clinker glass to for you and also say, you know, it's so hard to have our own thoughts and feelings but we're also in the middle of mothering. So i i You're a hero for going into it and doing it and I really appreciate that you were able to find the ability to have a conversation with me about this because I to watch the show and was just like, I need to talk to people about this. So

Mona Ray 1:07:19
thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation as well. Yeah. So many mommy conversations.

Jackie Leonard 1:07:26
Yeah, I know. Right? And, and also just like not directly about our kids, like, we got to talk about our own experiences, which is not easy or not common. I probably say this in the intro, but Mona is one of motor scopes newest contributors. So her writing is going to be featured throughout the year. And I'm really looking forward to getting to to host your writing. And before people go, can you share just a little bit about how people can connect with you after listening on social media and all that?

Mona Ray 1:07:59
Well, I am on writing Twitter. So for the other fellow writers on the writing Twitter. It's Mona, the Raven, at Mona, the Raven. And I also have a website Mona, the Raven, where I pretty much have my whole portfolio up there of various arts and things and thoughts and blurbs. And so that's where you can reach me. And also on mother scope.

Jackie Leonard 1:08:25
Scope, everything will be linked in the show notes as well to get in touch with Mona. And I am so looking forward to just seeing more of what you have to offer as an artist. So thank you, but as a mom to mom, I just enjoyed this conversation, man. I hope that you and your little ones you know, continue to have a wonderful, you know, journey this week into all the different things that happen.

Mona Ray 1:08:51
Yes, this week and the month and the year,

Jackie Leonard 1:08:54
just the endless cycle, but it's beautiful. Thank you so much, Mona. Thank you

Mona RayMaid

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