The Ambivalent Mother and The Lost Daughter

ABOUT THE EPISODE

This episode of The Motherscope Podcast is very important to me – it’s one I want to nurture and get right, so much so that it’s almost making me freeze up. Clearly I powered through because today I’m covering Maggie Gyllenhaal’s directorial debut The Lost Daughter as well as the 2016 comedy Bad Moms (directed by Jon Lucas and Scott Moore). At the heart of this discussion is the topic of maternal ambivalence – what it is, why every mom experiences this, and the way The Lost Daughter does such a good (and heartbreaking) job of showing it in an honest, unfiltered way. Especially compared with other recent examples of motherhood movies such as Bad Moms which doesn’t do us any favors combatting the ever-present stereotypes and judgment that mothers face. The episode is a heavy but worthwhile listen! Be sure to listen to the end to hear which of the two movies gets the “Mom Advocate” stamp!

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Jackie’s thoughts on Kim Kardashian’s business advice for women and the issue with neoliberal motherhood

• What maternal ambivalence is and why it’s important to recognize it’s something we all experience as mothers

• Punching up vs. punching down in comedy, and the problems that arise when men write jokes about motherhood in the film Bad Moms (Jon Lucas, Scott Moore)

• The dangers of telling honest stories about motherhood according to Maggie Gyllenhaal (director of The Lost Daughter)

• The power of the parallel scenes of motherhood in the past and present in The Lost Daughter 

• The expectation that in order to be a good mom, you have to put your childs’ needs 100% before your own and the consequences of that

• How to balance your visceral reactions to movies like The Lost Daughter and making sense of it for yourself and your reality 

• Why The Lost Daughter gets the “Mom Advocate” stamp in Jackie’s opinion

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Kim Kardashian's Business Advice - YouTube

• The Lost Daughter and the Ambivalent Mother

• What is Maternal Ambivalence? An Expert Explains - MamaMia

• Experiences and Meanings of Maternal Ambivalence in First-Born, Early Adolescents

• Good Men Project - Punching Up, Punching Down

• Maggie Gyllenhaal Has Dangerous Ideas About Directing - NYT 

• The Redemption of the Bad Mother - The Atlantic 

• The School for Good Mothers by Jessamine Chan

• Maggie Gyllenhaal Interview - LA Times

• Instagram: @motherscope

• CLICK HERE TO READ A RAW, UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE

  Jackie Leonard 00:00
  Hey there, I'm having a bit of a rip the band aid off experience. And I'll tell you why. This episode is one that I feel like is very important. It's one that I want to really nurture and discuss and, and dive into. So well, that it's making me almost freeze up thinking about talking about it, because there's so much I want to discuss, and it's just me, which puts all the pressure on me. And if you know the episode title, you know that today I am going to be talking about the recent film by Maggie Gyllenhaal, the lost daughter, I'm also going to be getting into the film bad mom's which came out in 2016. Both films could not be more different. But there are some parallels that I see. And even the contradictions in the way motherhood is represented are interesting to talk about. But before that, I'm going to open by sharing what I feel guilty of this week. And it's actually more pressing, I think I would say within the last 24 hours, I am guilty of feeling a lot of rage, specifically toward Kim Kardashian. And you know, there's a whole psychology around hate watching. And I will probably get into that later on in season two of this podcast. But to caveat, I will just say like, I really try not to allow myself to dive too deeply into the things that go on with that famous family because so much of it is curated. And almost like, I feel like a lot of their PR strategy is poking the bear and to get reactions out of people. So in some ways, I wonder if that's what this is. But last night, I saw this quote from Kim all over social media, from this interview she did with variety. And the quote is, I have the best advice for women in business, Kim says, Get your fucking ass up and work. It seems like nobody wants to work these days. And that's the quote that's been circulating quite a bit. As of late, I don't know where in the new cycle it will be when this episode airs. But I feel like the audio is even more insidious. And so I'm going to play that. And then I'll share more.
  
  02:22
  Get your fucking ass up and work. It seems like nobody wants to work these days, like I've just true, you have to surround yourself with people that want to work, have a good work environment where everyone loves what they do, because you've won life, no toxic work environments, and show up and do the work.
  
  Jackie Leonard 02:41
  So listen, I mean, I imagine that some of that larger quote you could say they are speaking to you know, having better work environments. Yes, that is true. We should not be working in toxic work environments. And it is good to surround yourself with people who are going to bring out the best in you as opposed to the worst. But man, this was like a read the room comments. First of all we're like, so burned out from the pandemic, the pandemic has shined and cast such a bright light on the disparities that exist to economically especially in the US. And celebrities have really been, you know, called out a lot more recently because of how they have portrayed their experiences during the pandemic compared to the rest of us. And so what really got to me about this comment, I mean, all that aside, right, was that it was directed toward women. And I will say I'm sure that the question that she was asked was specifically in reference to advice for women. But make no mistake, you know, Kim Kardashian knows what she's saying and knows what she's doing and has a team to help prepare and know what the questions are going to be and discuss answers and responses and review interviews and all that. So I mean, I'm not gonna fault the the person that asked this question to direct to women, that they need to get off their asses and work and that women don't want to work during a time when you know, moms. This is a mom who's speaking to other women. The pandemic especially has really call to attention how burned out and overworked moms are, especially right now. So I just, it just really got to me and it. It's less about Kim Kardashian, and more about the fact that I think this is a general perception still, about why you know, somebody might be struggling in their career or might be unsatisfied or not make enough money. There's still I think, a public perception even from the same people who are struggling, that the reason that's not happening for them is Is that they aren't working hard enough. And that's a problem. We I mean, I know you've probably seen the same thing, this hustle culture, this work until you drop mentality is not actually yielding better results. And it's not something that's going to ensure that you are successful, or that you're able to even support your family or lead a middle class lifestyle that has been sold to us by this American Dream that, you
  
  Jackie Leonard 05:32
  know, is embedded in our culture. And on top of all that, it's like, what are you calling work? What are you saying people don't want to do? Are you saying people don't want to go get a job for an employer so that they can make money off of them? I mean, I got into a number of conversations in the first season of this podcast with moms who were feeling like they were working, and work that make no mistake is bettering society, but does not receive a monetary compensation. I I've seen this before, but I saw it again, most recently that if mothers were paid for the work they do in raising their children, they would receive a I think it was like 160 180k a year salary. And so what is work to you, Kim Kardashian, and what are you referencing? And why are you directing it to women that just like, so that's the rage that's Cereza fired up in me. And like I said, I don't even have anger toward her specifically, it's more that I know that this is very much still a mainstream presumption about others. And, and it really frustrates me, it really gets me going. And even though I'm not going to get into work, quote, unquote, specifically, in this episode, both the movie Bad Moms and the lost daughter, you could examine those through the lens of a working mother. And they both reveal or reflect back a lot of the ways that we treat mothers specifically who work or have ambition or want to achieve things and are struggling. So not necessarily the mom who who quote unquote, we show is has it all, and is doing it all, but more, the mom who's trying to do all those things that is expected of her, and is is falling short. And then and then society punishes her. So I found that to be really interesting, and it actually does relate to what I'm talking about today. So here we go. And there's actually a phrase that was coined that I found really interesting that ties in this Kim Kardashian quote with the films we're going to talk about, and that's from an article I read, from kill your darlings.com that talks about this concept of neoliberal mothering, which was coined by a crime fiction scholar Ruth Kane. So under neoliberalism, women are insidiously expected to attain and perform a certain aesthetic of motherhood. Having it All in quotes means doing it all. And so when I read that, I was like, Oh, wow, that is exactly what the problem is with this. Kim Kardashian quote is that it's further perpetuating this idea of neoliberal mothering this, she can do it all, and she can have it all. And all you got to do is work hard. That's it. And as a consequence, the loud and clear message here is that if you do not have at all, it's because you don't have what it takes, you're not working hard enough. And if you feel like you can't do more than you already are, then I guess you never well, that really fires me up this idea of these like contradictory messages that we receive. Because I feel like we are also being inundated a lot with this idea of rest and take the time that you need, and your mental health is important. And we're not seeing a middle ground that realistically shows us how we can have something that that fulfills us in our lives and also take care of ourselves. That's just like a cesspool for mom guilt to me.
  
  Jackie Leonard 09:19
  So I didn't intend to go on and on so long about that. But like I said, I do feel like it ties really well into what we're talking about today. Because I think that disconnect, and that inability to recognize what is real is so damaging to moms, because already motherhood is something that is very contradictory for us. This phrase that I've really attached to since watching the film, the lost daughter, is maternal ambivalence. And for those of you who might really appreciate definitions here, the definition of ambivalence on its own is the state of having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone. And maternal ambivalence. I'll read a few different definitions because they all feel like they add on to the other. This is one from Psychology Today, ambivalence arises where there is a conflict between the needs of the parents and those of their children. Another is by Dr. Margot Loewy, who describes it as a mother's fleeting feelings of hate for a child, which in turn actually strengthens her love. It's a forbidden and silenced but a daily part of mothering. I thought that was really powerful. And also just love that it. It's something that's necessary or like a bonding, emotion or feeling to have, even though it's something that we feel ashamed for, or like we can't share openly talk about. And then another one, which was from a scholarly article All references in the show notes. Maternal ambivalence is an experience shared variously by all mothers in which loving and hating feelings for their children exist side by side. And if you're like me, the word hates sort of, like, wanted to repel it, because I was like, I don't feel like I hate my children. I don't have that like, actual thoughts. But hating feelings kind of sounded a little more digestible to me, or more understandable. I think I see it as like loving feelings are like those, Oh, they're so sweet. And this is so fun, or I'm having a you know, they're, they're everything to me, I love them so much. And then the heating feelings are kind of like, oh, this is annoying, please stop crying, or why are they doing this? I feel like that's what I embody as like hating feelings for anybody that similarly kind of felt a little bit of a dismissal of that word. But what I really want to focus on is this idea that it's something that is shared by all moms, like, how freeing is that that should be something that really gives you a lot of relief it did for me, to think this is something that we unanimously feel in varying degrees, so it doesn't feel the same for everybody. And I think if berries, I would imagine that anybody who made these definitions would agree with me, it buries across our entire experiences as moms right, that there are certain points when the ambivalence that we feel as moms is just strikingly loud. And there's other times that maybe it's a little bit more blurry, and it's not so hot and like dynamic, it's, it's more sort of in the middle or gray. But but that we are holding these in unison, and that that is normal, and it's okay. And also that it actually strengthens our bonds. I just, I love that. And I, I can see that there's so much conversation happening in essays and interviews and opinion pieces in response to the film The lost daughter, and the subject matter that it tackles that. I feel like that in itself speaks to the success of this film and the necessity for it that we really do need these kinds of stories to be told. I've always been casually familiar with Maggie Gyllenhaal. I can't think of too many films that I've seen where I'm like, oh, that's like a favorite movie of mine of hers that I've seen. I've seen the Secretary, I had forgotten but was reminded that she was in one of the Batman films. And recently I watched one or two episodes of the show the deuce after somebody recommended me watching it, because she is really good. And that that show. James Franco is also on it. So it was kind of hard for me to really get into it. So
  
  Jackie Leonard 13:57
  I don't know if I'll finish it. But all that to say I have been aware of Maggie Gyllenhaal I have always kind of had this assumption or understanding that she is a very talented actress. But I would say in recent years, I've been kind of noticing more and more that she was someone I wanted to pay attention to. I had read interviews of hers where every time I felt like she was speaking either if it was in a video or I was seeing a transcribed or an interview. She said something profound and often it felt like it had to do with being a woman or a mom. And so around the time of the new year I saw quill circulating on social media that really hit me in the gut and I loved and it obviously came from Maggie Gyllenhaal, speaking during the promotion of her first film as a director and screenwriter. I don't know if she's ever done screenwriting before. But this she did both for this film. And the quote was from an interview she did with The New York Times the The title of this interview, the headline was Maggie Gyllenhaal has dangerous ideas about directing. And I point that out because I'll share later, where she talks about something that's dangerous in her quote, but the quote that really circulated a lot was, I think that when women express themselves, honestly, it looks differently than when men express themselves, honestly. So this was in response to the question, is there such a thing as a woman's film, or women's filmmaking? And she said, Yes. So yes, she believes that when women express themselves, honestly, it looks different. And when men express themselves, honestly, it looks different, so that there's a very real distinction to her, in her opinion. And then the second part of the quote that, that really was catching a lot of attention. And I saw a lot of different people sharing on social media was this. When I am let loose, given a little bit of money and space to tell the story I want to tell it's about motherhood. It is about the domestic, and it does include a lot of scenes in the kitchen, can stories about the domestic really be seen as high art, because to me, it's an opera. I just ate up the idea of motherhood, the stories of motherhood being seen as an opera, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I love her. And I loved her because she was saying this on such a national stage, that it was getting attention. You know, I'm sure, we all have said things that were profound about motherhood in this way, or wanted to highlight motherhood. But for somebody of her, you know, having the platform that she does to be able to say this and have it circulate on the New York Times and across the media, I just, I just felt so much respect and appreciation that she was able to say that and and be celebrated for it because she is the film is receiving awards, she's receiving awards, around the time that this episode is going to air I believe the Oscars should be happening soon. So it may win more words. And that speaks to the power of sharing these kinds of stories. I thought it was interesting that, you know, when we, when we see quotes on social media, so many times they're paired down, because you don't want to, you have a huge block of text on our phones in the little squares that that we share. But before she's talks about, you know, when I when I'm given a little bit of money in space, she says, This is really dangerous to talk about. That's her line before that quote. And I mean, I don't think she fully gets into it. But so curious about this danger that she acknowledges, I mean, she talks about this film and, and the subject matter that it tackles being very radical, and, and there is something very dangerous and being radical, right, so So I get what she's saying. But, but wow, the fact that being honest about motherhood is dangerous. I'm not saying she's wrong, but I'm just saying like, Isn't that something? What does that say. And I also really appreciated that later in that interview shortly after she talks about, you know, the domestic being an opera to her. She She acknowledges where she's coming from, because she says, I did not come from women whose apron strings were tied to the kitchen. My mom is a professional person, her mom's a screenwriter, and director. My grandmother was a pediatrician in the 40s. And my great aunt was a lawyer, I'm educated, and I've got a professional life. And yet my identification as a mother is a massive part of me. And I really appreciated that and found that so important to note, because
  
  Jackie Leonard 18:53
  that's the thing about motherhood that I feel so proud of that, regardless of her accomplishments, or her career, or even the women that she came from, she still feels like so much of her identification, is because she's a lot like so much of who she is. She credits to her role as a mother, and it doesn't matter. I the way I read that also is that even though she was not ever expected to or had the expectation of herself that she would need to be, you know, a quote unquote, housewife or stay at home mom, which are the, the labels that we categorically as a society assigned to the mother who is unfulfilled or feeling, you know, resentful, right like so often when we see in stories or movies and films and TV, the mom who's the stay at home mom, or the one who gave up her career. She's also built to be this one who didn't ever actually or dreams or felt resentful of her children. But Maggie Gyllenhaal decided to create a film that spoke to maternal ambivalence, and brought it to the forefront like this is what this movie is about. And she is somebody who we've represented as the one who would typically have it all, who would be able to afford the childcare that you need to go into your career and, and be fulfilled and, and she's wealthy enough that she could take time off and spend time with their kids if she chose to. And still, she has this identity and expectation of who she needs to be as a mom that she feels conflicted about. And all that to say, obviously, her experiences as a mom and her struggles are very different from, for example, a single lower income mom who is working multiple jobs and barely, you know, making enough money to care for her children, very different lifestyles, very different circumstances. But there is this unity in that maternal ambivalence. I talked about that, that struggle between, I love my children so much. And right now, I just I don't know, I just want to get away. And that is what the lost daughter tackles. And it really is this mirror into our experiences that is both jarring and unsettling. And also gives us the space to feel like I can let my guard down, I can sigh a big sigh of relief, because I have these feelings, too. It's not just me. And I spoke about this with the whole Kim Kardashian quote. But I always like to remind myself because it's very easy with social media. And when I'm in the mom space to feel like it's a bit of an echo chamber, where I'm seeing all sorts of things about centering moms and sharing mom's stories and how important it is to nurture moms. But that is not still widely or fully accepted belief in our society. And so there are, there's something else that Maggie Gyllenhaal said later in the interview that I also wanted to read, because I felt like it spoke to why we don't really see these kind of stories in our mainstream very often, and why it's especially so rare in films. So she says she was asked, why don't we talk about these things? Essentially, why don't we see more movies like this? She says, I think it's a combination of two things. Partly, there hasn't been a lot of space for women to express themselves. So an honest, feminine expression is unusual. But there's also a kind of cultural agreement not to talk about these things, because we all have mothers, she says, We're all like, I don't want my mother to have been ambivalence. And she says, I tried to be as honest as I possibly could be. This is about normalizing a massive spectrum of feelings.
  
  Jackie Leonard 23:09
  And I love that. She points out that, you know, we all come from moms. So sharing stories about the honest struggle and hardships and just feelings, like the things that we moms experience, as a whole, collectively, to varying degrees is normal. As children of mothers, we don't want those stories, they make us uncomfortable to think about is that what my mom felt. And I think it's interesting to think about people maybe that do not have children, how they might perceive a film like this, because as a mom myself, I'm like, well, that only just makes me humanize our mothers versus you know, wanting to reject that. But the maybe there is something to be said about that. And as a mom, there is something unsettling, like I said, about seeing your thoughts put out on a film, because we've been conditioned to put them away and not say them aloud. And here we are seeing it in you know, in our faces and that other people are seeing this and knowing that it's true. It's almost like you're not supposed to tell people this maybe there's a part of us that feels that as well. I don't know, I I think on the whole these stories are more freeing than harmful. And I mean, she's she's just really preaching to the choir here. So I won't go on and on in my adoration too much more. Before we get into, you know, the actual films, but you'll see especially when I start talking about bad mom's she's right these these films are unusual, these stories to be put out in a public way or unusual and it's even more unusual for them to be told by a woman or a mother and for them to on top of all of that be celebrated I think this is a good place to say before I get too far into the film, the lost daughter, if it's one that you really want to see, and you don't want to have anything given away or diminished, because I talked about it in full on this episode. This is a good stopping point, because I haven't really gotten into it yet. And similarly, if you you know, don't want the movie bad mom's ruined for you, I'm going to talk about that as well. So how did I connect? The last daughter with bad mom's? Like, where did that? How did that happen to my brain? I'll walk you through it. Okay, so after I watched the last daughter on Netflix, which I do want to caveat, if you have not seen the movie, and you're still listening, I will say it took me at least, I mean, I read the Maggie Gyllenhaal quote that I told you about that I saw on social media, probably around like early January. And I remember thinking, Oh, I really want to watch that movie, because it sounds really fascinating. But I knew there was something I mean, that knew it was going to be kind of a heavy movie, even if it wasn't like terrifying or whatever, I just knew that it was one of those movies that I needed to be in the right mood for.
  
  Jackie Leonard 26:11
  And so I waited, I waited until a fell right. And that took me I would say maybe six weeks since I decided I wanted to see it to sit down and feel like I was in a space where the time was right for me to sit down and watch it. So I would recommend that of you as well. This isn't something that like you're going to put on and like fold the laundry to when you're having like a stressful day, watch something a little bit more light and, and positive. And save this for like a time that you want to just go inward and think about things because the movie stayed with me, it's still staying with me, I feel like I'm still processing it. And I think that's why it's taken me a little while to really speak about it because so much was said without words, you know, so much was portrayed and presented. And so many different dynamics were on the screen and happening really quickly that I'm still thinking about it, it's still staying with me. And what I do very naturally after high watch something that is compelling or thought provoking, I go online, and I start searching for essays or opinion pieces about it and reviews to to process to see what other people think what they noticed if they agree with thoughts I had, and I stumbled upon this essay from the Atlantic by Sophie Gilbert. It's called the redemption of the bad mother. And within her essay, it's it's a really great read, I recommend you go read that after you listen to this episode. It'll be in the show notes. She also brings up a book which I had not heard of. But I am now in the middle of reading actually called The School for Good mothers by Jessamine Chan. And it's a slightly dystopian novel, it came out very recently. And the premise of the book I'll I'll share is basically a woman, a mom of a young child is having like an awful few days with her she's sick and keeping her up late at night. And so she leaves her kid at home. It's a very, very young child. For hours, I can't remember the total number of hours and she is caught, somebody reports it and she gets a call from the police while she's out. And she is sent away to this school for good mothers basically, to train her how to be a good mom. And like I said, it's slightly has this dystopian feel, and I haven't read too much into it. So I won't. I don't have more to share. But that premise alone just really hooked me when I was reading this article in The Atlantic. But what I want to also read is the sub headline for this the redemption of the bad mother, it says
  
  Jackie Leonard 28:59
  two recent works challenged the long standing pattern of American motherhood, we give mothers nothing and expect everything in return. So she talks about within this essay, both the lost daughter and this book, The School for Good mothers and and that's what really kind of ignited this idea for me to speak to this idea of good mom and bad mom and what that is and we know we've I mean I've used this before I've said I've been such a good mom or I've been a bad mom today. Like we say these terms, these phrases, these labels, we put them on ourselves, but like who is actually setting that standard? Like what is the standard? Is there such a thing as like, a number of things you can do to qualify as a good mom. And is there such a thing as the number of bad things you do that qualify you as a bad mom and who's making those rules like it just it just sparked my brain and when sent it in all these different directions when I started thinking about a school for good mothers and how loaded that is like, what, what a thought, right. And I feel like in so many ways we live in a school of good mothers really like this school of, of the society, everyone else telling us what it means to be a good mom when I don't know if you've heard this phrase, but I think it's popular in psychotherapy, that that focuses on maternal mental health, that all we have to be is a good enough mom. Like that's really all our children need. But that goes so against what we have been led to believe about ourselves as people in our society. And also especially as moms like what I only have to be good enough, the way it was presented to me was basically like, you are shooting to get to be an A to get an A as a mom, and really all you have to do is a C and and you're still going to raise a wonderful child. And I was like, Are you kidding me? Like I was the overachiever in school you cannot be telling me. I should strive for a see that's that's a failure. But But that's so isn't that so true of how we view what we need to accomplish as moms, we feel like we have to get an A, an A plus even. I mean, if you were an AP student, right? It was you got a 5.0 instead of a 4.0. If you got an A in those classes, like that's what I should be doing. So in my, you know, long little journey in my brain, after thinking about this idea of good versus bad, I started thinking about the movie bad mom's and when I looked up the film bad mom's I in my memory, I have seen the movie, I saw it when it came out. I for some reason, thought it came out like in 2007 or something, but it actually is not that old. I think the subject matter of the movie and the way that it framed motherhood to me felt very like early 2000s. But actually came out in 2016. And the film was written and directed by not a mom, not a woman, but two men. I'm going to go on a whim and just say I believe they are ces had white men who wrote the film. Their names are John Lucas and Scott Moore. The film was CO produced by a woman named Suzanne Moore and I know, this is the first time I'm noticing it. I wonder if Scott Moore and Suzanne Moore are related. But I don't know that off the top of my head right now. If you aren't familiar with the film, Bad Moms, it's it's essentially a comedy. So it's very different from the last daughter, which is a psychological kind of drama thriller film. But bad moms.
  
  Jackie Leonard 32:43
  It was a mainstream film that came out in 2016. Like I said, it's a comedy at one point Judd Apatow and Lesley Monroe attached to it and then they pulled out. It stars Mila Kunis, Kathryn Hahn and Kristen Bell as like the three main moms in the film, and then also Christina Applegate, and Jada Pinkett Smith are also supporting characters in the film. And all the women the moms in this movie are connected because their children go to the same school. And so the three moms become friends. And then the secondary characters that I mentioned are part of the PTA. And so there's this kind of drama that transpires throughout the movie between these three moms and the PTA. Already, as I'm talking about, it's like, so stereotypical, so many tropes here of what motherhood is. It's a very funny movie, if you're really kind of looking for this like a little bit raunchy, light hearted kind of experience. And there are times and I'll share them when there's a line or a quote from one of the characters that I'm like, where did they hear this? Like, who were they listening to that they wrote this down, if, if these two men exclusively wrote this the screenplay and directed this film, they had to have gotten influence from somebody because this is not something that they would have just pulled up out of nowhere. But all that to say, this is not a film that I would consider riveting kind of exploratory story about the complexities or nuances of motherhood. I feel like it's very surface level and some of the jokes I'll get into feel like what I will call judgmental jokes. That kind of joke that somebody who delivers them will say like, I'm laughing with you, not at you like it's funny, and they're, you know, backhanded or coated with some judgments about the types of moms that are featured in this movie. And the characters in this movie are definitely caricatures. I would not say I mean, somebody can debate this with me, but I would say they are not very well rounded characters. They fit within the category of who they were based on the type that was assigned to them. So Mila Kunis plays the working mom. Kristen Bell is the stay at home mom. And Kathryn Hahn is like the sexual single mom. And even Christina Applegate, who plays the PTA president is very much like what you would picture when you hear PTA mom, right. I can't help but bring up because this is a comedy, the concept of punching up versus punching down. And I've heard about this from I listened to a number of podcasts that are hosted by stand up comedians who are women. So they've spoken to this and I looked it up. And it is a concept in like studying, stand up comedy, this idea of punching up versus punching down. And there are some people who feel really defensive against it, that it's, you know, anything should be on the table when it comes to making jokes. But traditionally, in comedy, they have a saying the always punch up and never punch down. And essentially, what that's saying is don't attack people who are already marginalized. And what it really has to do with is this idea of social power dynamics, the idea being that your power and influence should alter who you can publicly insult because your power affects the joke. So when I was looking into this, I actually like searched, you know, punch up, punch down comedy, and I found a link for this website called the good men project, which feels fitting, right, because we're talking about good or bad moms. And they use two examples. And I don't know if you remember these, but one of them was, there was a White House Correspondents Dinner when Trump was president. And Michelle wolf was a comedian who did her routine, her stand up routine. And she said some things that people found to be disrespectful or, you know, not appropriate comedy. She may have even been the host. And people kind of came back and said, it's felt more like a roast than her being this hostess of this correspondents dinner. So whether or not people believe this was an appropriate place or way to be comedic. She was doing what would be an example of punching up. I mean, the President is like the most powerful figure in our country in the US. So that's a punch up example, especially when you get into the fact that she was a woman and he was a wealthy white older man. Another controversy that would be an example of punching down a situation in comedy was Matt groaning, who created the Simpsons.
  
  Jackie Leonard 37:40
  Recently, recently to this blog post that I'm reading from the good men report, was defending and arguing that the character upu that he created that he was getting a lot of flack for the Creator, Matt groaning said people love to pretend they're offended. So in this example, we're talking about Matt groaning, who's a very powerful, successful male, white male, creating a character who is Indian, being presented using classic stereotypes that we have created for Indians in our country. So again, that would be a punching down example. And I get into this because even though I can watch the film, Bad Moms and laugh, and these, these characters, these actresses, who I'm familiar with, are saying the jokes and they're being really funny. I can't help but think as I was watching it more critically, most recently, these were written by men. These were lines written by men. And that feels like a punching down. It feels like they're making fun of us at our expense. And it didn't make me feel better to learn that this movie was a huge success at the box office, I think I made 180 million and they went on to make some sequel that I didn't even know existed for like it was like a Christmas version. I don't want to get too far into this movie, because I want to make sure that I have enough time to talk about the lost daughter. But I do want to just share some of the like characteristics or things about each of the moms that I noted and felt like, really cemented that these were very stereotypical mom figures. For example, the working mom, which was played by Mila Kunis, she they make a point to talk about how she's like, so busy and so frazzled, and so stressed out with her kids. And she says, at least once a day, I feel like the worst mom in the world. I feel like I'm screwing up all the time. Still, I love being a mom. And she also of course has the husband who's the the manchild. She talks about feeling like he's her third child. Of course, though, the working mom is also the mom who is having the least amount of sex. Our marriage has been over for years can't remember last time we had sex, she says. And then at some point later, there's a scene where she's in her bra. And she says this is my sexy bra. It looks like you just got out Surgery, her friend says, you don't even have to tits. This bra will be the death of your vagina. So going back to like what Kim Kardashian said about work, we are saying in this movie, like if you're the working mom, you're not having sex, and you're not sexy. And I feel like it's even more frustrating to me that this working mom character that they put in is working part time. And they make a point of saying that she only works part time. And she's actually working more than she should be at this job and not getting paid for it. And I'm not exactly sure what they're trying to say with that. Not that I'm trying to diminish part time work. But like, if you're creating this working mom character, why? Why do you have to add that she's working part time? I just don't. I was wondering why they had to distinguish it like that was a choice. And what's that choice trying to say? Again, that choice almost feels like it's a little bit of a backhanded thing. Like, look at how crazed and frazzled this woman is. She's working part time. And not even, like, able to have a full career and being taken advantage of by this boss. I mean, eventually, at the end, her arc is like that she leaves her husband and finds this sexy widow dad who affirms that she's a great mom. And then she like tells her boss that she wants to work, you know, all these like special hours and get paid more. And that's the end for her but, but again, like they really, you know, made her on an appeal. I mean, unattractive and it's like it's played by me, Mila Kunis, but, and her husband is just like, not supportive and manchild and cheating on her because you know, he's not, she's not having sex with him. And that's, that's, that's her character. And the stay at home mom is even more frustrating. She's played by Kristen Bell. The one thing that really resonated for me that I felt like this, this has to come from a mom who shared this and told the writer to put it in, or maybe one of the writers was married and had a wife. And she has said this to him before. But here's a quote that I think does resonate for a lot of moms. And it resonated for me as somebody who was a very burnt out worker in education and in the legal field, before I had kids, so I'll share this quote.
  
  Jackie Leonard 42:19
  Sometimes when I'm driving all by myself, I have this fantasy that I get into a car crash, not a big one, just a little one. But I do get injured, and I get to go to the hospital for two weeks. And I sleep all day, I eat jello, and I watch TV. And it's all covered by my insurance. And in some ways that quote would be like there was such a missed opportunity in this scene, because right after she says it, she makes us vulnerable confession. And she looks over to these two other moms and says, Do you feel like that too? And they both are like no, like, what's wrong with you? You're crazy. And so this is again, where it feels like it's a punching down. Like, she says this thing that's so outrageous that she speaks spoke out loud and not saying that every mom feels this exact thing. But in my experience, if I were to share that with another mom, I feel like I would get like, oh yeah, like I totally get that or that sounds amazing. You know, like I said, this is a thought I used to have when I was working like before I became a mom and I've actually heard other people I know, share this same feeling. So I know it's in a movie, right? Like this is something that's a little bit more universal and accepted. And then for the friends who she's confiding in to them, like basically tell her like you're weird. And she is the weird mom character makes I feel like it induces shame. Like, it'll elicit shame and a viewer to watch that and then have that response right afterwards. So again, it feels like almost like they're, they're throwing something out there at us to feel like Oh, I feel seen and then they're making a joke about it. And Kathryn Hahn is like, the big comedic relief and she's amazing. I love her but her character was this like hyper sexualized single mom, who like doesn't really care about our kids and is like free to let them do whatever and doesn't really parent. There's a scene where Mila Kunis, his character says like, Is it hard for you to share your kid with your ex husband? And Catherine Han's character goes like Fuck no, like, basically like, I don't want my kids around like I'm tired of my kids. She at one point, there's a scene where me like Eunice's character decides to run for PTA president. And so Catherine Vaughn's character is telling all the other moms to vote for her. And she threatens these moms and says, you know, if you don't vote for her, I'll sleep with your husbands. And it's like, it's almost like these, these people who created this movie are like, eliciting all the fears of moms and creating characters of them like, oh, that single mom at your school is gonna sleep with your husband. And, you know, if you're working hard, that means that you're like, have a bad sex life in your marriage. And if you're a stay at home, mom, you're basically being abused by your kids. And you're likely to be in a marriage with a person Who looks at you as subservient and expects you to do everything for the kids and isn't supportive of you, when you choose to go spend time with some friends, there's a scene where she's out to lunch with the other women and her husband is like, runs into her. And he's like, Where are the kids? And she's like, I got a sitter to watch them. And he's like, Isn't that your job? I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I can't. I mean, there's so many problematic things about that movie that I'm just gonna, you know, probably just end here. I haven't even gotten into the way I feel like they approach therapy, and then the way that drinking and you know boozy moms are represented. That could be a whole other hour long discussion. But the thing that just didn't really resonate for me, there's like this monologue at the end by Mila Kunis, where she talks about, you know, we're all trying so hard, and we're going crazy. And I don't know what I'm doing. I never know what I'm doing. And I think we are all bad moms. But that's because it's impossible to be a good mom. So we should stop pretending. And it's this moment that's supposed to have this like earned fulfillment to it, right? Like, this is what the end of the movie, this is the aha, this is the moment that we all come together, and it plays out that way. But as a film, if their intention was to not elicit mom guilt to help moms feel a little less, like they have to be perfect all the time, I would have a hard time being able to say that I think I'd achieved that purpose, I don't really know that that's what it actual, its actual goal was, I think you need to help people feel seen. And you need to achieve that before you try to lead them down a path and give them a theory or like something that they should take away with them. And I feel like in some ways, this movie made you feel seen. And then at the same time, it also made you feel judged. So it's almost like they were like playing with our emotions.
  
  Jackie Leonard 47:04
  By contrast, the film, the lost daughter is so much more subtle. It's like I said, a very different viewing experience. The last daughter was released through Netflix, so I don't I mean, I'm, I believe it might have played at some theaters, but it's on the streaming platform. It's a movie for all intents and purposes that we are invited to watch in our privacy. So this is, you know, 10 years ago, this would have been a movie that was in theaters and, and the viewing experience would be very different, right? This is a movie that I was able to watch after my kids had gone to bed and just be alone with and let let it sit with me and not have somebody to lean over and say something to so that's the kind of viewing experience that we were given with this film. It's more tender. It's it's quiet. There are a lot of times in the movie that we're not getting dialogue, but we're still getting and processing so much. The last daughter I have shared was directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal, who also wrote the screenplay. The screenplay is an adaptation of a novel that was written by Elena Ferrante. Alana Ferrante is actually a pseudonym is she is an anonymous author, and Italian novelist. There's not much that we know about her that we can say for certain as a result, I hadn't heard of her prior to learning about the last daughter, but she did write the book in a little that I have read based on the types of books and the subject matter that she tackles. And in some letters that people have received or heard from her. It is assumed that she's a mother. But I mean, if it's an anonymous person, we don't know that for a fact. And she's 78 years old. I mean, on her website, it says she was born April 5 1943, from Naples, Italy, but I mean, I guess we'll take her word for it right.
  
  Jackie Leonard 49:05
  She does tackle these the subject matter of motherhood and maternal ambivalence in her writing. And this book specifically, I'm really curious to read. I've read a lot from Maggie Gyllenhaal about things she did and made different from the book to the film in her adaptation. One of those is that the book itself is not necessarily like a thriller. And if I hadn't read it describe this way in reviews I probably wouldn't have assigned that label but it does have this like psychological unsettling feeling. Throughout the watch of the movie. There is this tension that builds and builds and builds over something really silly but but it it does have that thriller feel which I grew to really appreciate the more I read about the the movie and why it was made that way. So the movie The last daughter for anybody who hasn't watched it yet It tells the story of a woman named Lita, who, in the present time is a I think she's like 48 years old, a middle aged woman who has two grown daughters, and who is on what seems like kind of like a work vacation or a sabbatical where she goes to a fictional Greek island for a work, vacation. Essentially, she makes a point of saying a couple times that she's there for work, but it's very restful, she's alone. And the movie kind of goes from there transpires when she encounters and interacts with this family that includes a pregnant sort of matriarchal figure. A young mom with a young daughter, who loses her daughter and Lita helps her find her and it kind of transpires from there. Much of the movie goes in flashbacks. So it takes us back to when Lita was a young mom, and had you know, her two kids were very young and was raising them. She is an academic who is a writer, and, and really trying she's like in that kind of like graduate school phase of her life where she's trying to publish and build her career. And she's trying to do all that while being a wife and a mother to two young daughters. In the present time, she's, you know, on the beach, and she notices this young mother that I mentioned, who has also a young daughter, the mother is played by Dakota Johnson, and her name is Nina. In my reading of reviews from this film, somebody pointed out that the names are all very similar of the women in this movie, and I thought that was really interesting because it does get confusing, and it creates this, this sort of blurring or like blending of these characters like they are all the same. They are all mothers or they're all just like interconnected, and I thought that was really interesting. So you've got Lita, Nina and Elena. Lita is played by Olivia Coleman, who plays the 48 year old version of Lita and the younger version of Lita is played by Jessie Buckley. Then you've got Nina who I said, was played by Dakota Johnson. And then you've got Alanna, who is Nina's daughter, so all those names sort of sound very similar. And I kept tripping them up. And I would call her Lena and then I was like, No, that's Lena, Lita and Nina and like combining those two names, and so it's a very interesting effect. I feel like it keeps you on your toes a bit. And after everything I've read about Maggie Gyllenhaal and what she did with the film, I feel like that was an intentional thing. The scenes are the moments in this movie that really are staying with me that I felt like were so powerful, powerful, are these parallels that existed from past to present. There's the scene in the past when Lita is laying on the floor, and her daughters are playing around her and you see her like, falling asleep. And you just, I just felt like I was in that moment, I could feel what that feels like just laying on the floor and just wandering, just have a few minutes of peace or quiet into sleep. And you've got your kids running around you and then all of a sudden one of her daughters smacks or something and she loses it. And
  
  Jackie Leonard 53:30
  and that is paralleled by later in the future right in the presence of this film. Lita is on this vacation, this very idyllic Greek Isles, the thing that you know, as moms we would dream to be able to get away and do. And she's trying to have a quiet moment you see her try to eat or lay on, you know, the the lawn chair, the recliner, whatever those are called on the beach. And she keeps getting interrupted, she is unable to have this quiet, peaceful moment. And that continues throughout in the present. And it just builds this tension and the stress that you see and it very much mirrors that experience of the young version of her where she just wants this time to herself so she can finish what she's trying to work on. And nobody will let her have it. So much so and and this is like the big reveal on the movie that we find out that she I mean, we later see that she has an affair and that's not really the big bomb. The bomb is the comes at the later part of the movie when she reveals to Nina that she she left her kids she walked away one day and and was gone for three years. She essentially left her husband with them who you know, they split up and she left him and was gone for three years and Nina kind of asked her like, how did that feel like what was that like? And Lita says it felt amazing. And Nina says, Well, if it felt Amazing, then why did you go back to your daughters? And Lita says, I'm their mother, I went back because I miss them. I'm a very selfish person. And it's such a moment in the film. Like I said, I, if you're listening, and you haven't seen it, I mean, I hope that didn't diminish it for you. But there's so much that happens in between. And there's so much that we see about Lita in present time. That that is disturbing. And I'm, you know, Maggie Gyllenhaal makes a point often to say, you know, this isn't necessarily what I would do, right? Like, I have not done this, I feel like this is something horrible to, to unthinkable, right to abandon your daughter's
  
  Jackie Leonard 55:44
  feels like the ultimate, you know, the worst thing, the label that we would give a bad mom, right. And yet, throughout the film, were given moments and glimpses of her life, where we can relate to that feeling of despair and wanting to get away. And it really hit home for me watching it because shortly, a little bit before I watched the movie, actually, I was able to I went away for two nights, which had been the first time I've done this in since like, late 2019. So it's now you know, early 2022. So over two years, since I've been away overnight, for my children, I did this for two nights, for something I had to do for mother scope. And I remember being in the hotel, like, I remember fantasizing about it, fantasizing about it for four months, the opportunity to be able to get away. And then here it was, I had my moment. And don't get me wrong, it was wonderful. It was fun. It was fun to be able to sit at a bar and have a drink and eat out and not be on a time crunch. Because the kids were about to melt down and be in a hotel room and just relax. So those were all wonderful. But I felt like what I was really trying to fantasize was this ability to go back in time. Like to literally get in a space, time machine and, and go back in time. Because what I'm trying to achieve, I think what I miss what I longed for is, is that, that blissful freedom of just worrying about yourself. But I couldn't do that. When I was away. I was thinking about my kids, I was like, I need to FaceTime them. I hope they're okay, I hope my husband's doing okay with them by himself. Like all those thoughts were ever present. Even when I was trying to enjoy myself like they were there, I was still able to enjoy myself. But it wasn't the same as it was like before I had kids. And so I think that's the thing that I fantasize and there was a little bit of a letdown in this getaway that I had. Because I wasn't able to achieve that feeling. And I don't know that I ever will. And if that isn't like, maternal ambivalence, like I don't know what is right. So in that, the Atlantic essay that I mentioned to you, she talks about this, she talks about this idea of space, being selfish, and a bargain you make when you decide to be a good mother is that there's no self anymore. All happiness and gratification now comes from the happiness and gratification of your children. In the book that I mentioned the school for good mothers, there's a line that says you have to recognize the difference between what you want and what she wants. A social worker tells the main character Freda that her implication according to this essay, is that what Freda wants no longer applies. A mother is always patient instructors. Tell Freda when she's institutionalized after making the decision to leave her toddler toddler alone. A mother is the buffer between her child and the cruel world absorb it, they tell her take it, take it left on acknowledged is the truth that human beings can only stretch so far before they break. So that was a line from Sophie Gilbert's who wrote the Atlantic piece, the redemption of the bad mother. And oh my gosh, right. This idea that like, as a good mom, you have to let go of that you have to put your kids needs 100% Before your own without acknowledging the real facts that like we can only go so far before we break if we do not allow the opportunity to prioritize ourselves. In that same piece, there's a quote by a woman named Rachel Cusk. And she says in her book, a life's work on becoming a mother. When I leave her, the world bears the taint of my leaving. So that abandonment must now be subtracted from the sum of whatever I choose to do. A visit to the cinema is no longer that it is less a tarnished thing, unalloyed pleasure and that describes so perfectly the experience I said of me being away for two days it was like it was not quite the same because I was now on Mom. And so when I was watching this movie, like, those are the things that I was thinking about myself.
  
  Jackie Leonard 1:00:07
  Alongside this, this very unsettling feeling that like, I share these feelings with a woman who abandoned her kids like, what does that say about me? And I don't think, you know, the intention is to make that judgment. Like to put that judgment on other moms. I think it's to say like, this is real, these are real feelings. And look at what's happening, you know, look at, you know, look at this choice this woman made. What do you think about that? Like, are you going to condemn her? Are you going to condemn something else? What Who should we be condemning in this movie? I don't think it's it's Lita. I mean, she can bear some of that, you know, that judgment, but But it's not just Lita, right? What happened in leaders life that made her break, something made her break in so many ways. It's like, it was probably best that Lido left, maybe her children were better off what would Lita have done if she was forced to stay if that she hadn't taken that step out. We know examples of what happens to both the the mothers who feel trapped, and the children who are trapped in unhealthy situations. And so I'm not, you know, advocating for people leaving their children by any means, but but, you know, there's this this severe, you know, reaction from society to think about a mother who abandons her children. And what I find really powerful in this movie, is that there are a couple of moments where Lita, you know, comes in contact with a man who has abandoned his children, and you see that they are, you know, maybe a little regretful of it or feel a little bad for it, but ultimately, like they are not being punished in the same way, or shamed in the same way as Lita. And for the most of the movie, Lita is basically punishing herself. And you see, what I find really fascinating about this movie is we don't fully know there's an end, the ending of the movie leaves it unclear if Elena is alive or dead. But throughout the movie, there's at least one or two moments where we see Lita try to possibly reach out to her children who are now adults. And they're not really engaging with her, they're cutting her off or not answering. And so we see that that relationship is strained that her relationship with her daughter's is strained. And then at the end of the movie, after she's been wounded, by basically the younger representation of herself, the young mom that she encountered, she, you know, is on the beach, and stumbles and passes out. And then she calls her her her daughter's, and they're all happy to talk to her and very sweet, and they engage in this conversation with their mom. And it seems like you know, this, this isn't reality, right? This isn't reality anymore, because we know, the consequence of this awful thing that she did is likely that she does not have a very close relationship with her daughters. And she feels ambivalent about that. Right. She probably feels like it was a wonderful time for her. But then she also knows that she has suffered and she sees herself very differently as a result. There's this very powerful imagery in the movie from when Lita was younger with her daughters. And they love they asked her to peel an orange. And what she does is she, she peels it in one full piece, and they, you know, she there's this chant that's like, don't break the snake, or they say peel it like a snake, don't let it break. And it was actually made like a little like a nursery rhyme like a chant. And it's like this little game that they love to see their mom do. And it, it kind of reminds me of that, that thing, that line that I said about, you know, they don't acknowledge, you know, you can only push somebody so far until they break. It's like, leaders even being asked by our children to do something perfectly. Don't let it break. Because that would that you would lose the game, right? And so I thought that was so powerful. And there's a couple moments when they asked her to do it throughout the past the flashback scenes, and then at the very end of the movie, Lita, when she's talking her daughter, she's peeling the orange, right? And this is why so many people are like, is this real? Or was she dead? Or what happened? Because how is it that after she's like, stumbled out of her car and passed out that once her daughters call her she's, she has an orange and a knife in her in her pockets. So yeah, I just found that really fascinating. That was a very visceral image to me so much so that my kids have been really into mandarin oranges lately, and I found myself peeling and I was like, oh my god, I'm peeling it perfectly. Like, break it up, break it up. So anyways, I think, you know,
  
  Jackie Leonard 1:04:53
  I'm, like I said, I'm still processing my experience watching this film. I've loved talking about it with other people who've seen it. as well, one mom said it was raw and triggering, I thought it was a real look into all the layers of motherhood, that even if you loathe this woman's decision in her younger years to leave her family, her children, you deeply understand the pressure that could make that a possibility, especially for a creative. She goes on to say, I enjoyed watching it. And it also made me very sad. I had pulled people on social media on Instagram and said, you know, what were your thoughts, if you saw the movie, I just watched it. And someone else reached out and said, you know, that they were disturbed by the film, but then also just disturbed about their emotional connection to it, which I found really interesting, and also very relatable this, like this escape, that that we're are drawn to this, this fantasy of escaping, and having these these feelings of both feeling seen and then also disturbed or shame for, for having that fantasy to begin with. And that speaks to, you know, a lot of the stuff that I mentioned at the beginning about the ambivalence of motherhood and also this this taboo and being able to talk about it. This person, one of the people who responded to me also highlighted the fact that pandemic parenting has really created this fatigue in us, that almost magnifies those feelings of that desire to escape. So I really appreciated getting some responses from some of you, and those in the mother scope community that are following along, letting me know your reactions, because this is one of those movie watching experiences. Like I said, that was very solitary for me because I, I watched it on Netflix, and I watched it by myself in my room, and to hear other moms have conversation around it, I feel like is going to be so important and so necessary to process it, but then also just make sense of it for ourselves. When I was reading the interviews that Maggie Gyllenhaal was doing something she said really stood out to me because I've noticed, sometimes when I watch things like this movie, I want to know, I want to know what to do with it. Where do I Where do I put all these feelings? What does it mean? I want these answers. And maybe that speaks to the maternal fatigue, the burnout that we are experiencing as moms, you know, approaching the two year anniversary of the pandemic. So in an interview with the LA Times, Maggie Gyllenhaal was having a conversation with this reporter. And they asked her essentially, if in making the film, it illuminated anything about her own relationship to motherhood, or relationship with her daughters, Maggie Gyllenhaal also has two daughters, or with her relationship with her own mother and her responses. I hope this movie is compassionate about how complicated being alive is which I love. She says I was really trying to open the spectrum of acceptable feelings. And that has been really helpful to me to allow myself to see in myself all sorts of complicated feelings, and not indict myself for them. And the reporter says like, what is there anything specific? And Gyllenhaal says I mean, that's not art anymore. That's therapy. And she's unquestioned and you see those as distinct? And she says, I do? Yes, I do. I think the fiction is incredibly valuable in terms of self expression. In fiction. It allows you a freedom to go and explore really dangerous nooks and crannies of your own mind and heart and share them with the world. But again, I do think art and therapy are different, although certainly one is informed by the other, but they ought to remain distinct. And I love kind of ending on this note, because I heard recently it said that, you know, reading stories, is a self exploratory experience. And so her kind of sort of putting up a hand of this reporter in a way and saying, you know, the art is this film like this film is arts and what I take away from it, that's therapy
  
  Jackie Leonard 1:09:17
  that is very separate. And that's an individual personal experience, that I'm not going to attach to this art that I made, because for each individual for my audience, they are going to take and attach their own things to it. That is what art is all about. And further exploring the further examination that you do intimately personally for yourself as a result of watching this movie. Well, that's that's what therapy looks like. Right? That's something you can do in the room with your therapist or explore yourself but not in this in this specific medium that we're talking about. That's what I took from it at least and so it kind of Made me step back and say okay, this movie is not here to give me answers. It's here to almost open up a vein for me that I need to explore what is hitting for me in this movie experience. I, I feel really compelled and attracted to rewatching this movie or just sitting with it and writing about it, thinking about how much the relationship between Lita who was played by Olivia Coleman, and Nina, who was played by Dakota Johnson are these parallels like you watch Lita being kind of entranced by Nina like very fascinated with her almost jealous of her being young again and feeling empathy for her just, you know, relating to those feelings as an early mom. It's almost like she's doing that thing where she's re parenting herself. Like she's going to Nina and telling her things like, you know, I remember that. When Nina confesses I'm really tired, like scary, tired, you know, Lita gives her that. Like, I remember I know what that was like. And what's funny is there's another woman in the movie who's related to Nina. I think it's her sister in law, and she's pregnant. She doesn't have any children yet. And she kind of is is prodding Lita like trying to get her to tell her about what motherhood was like for her and Lita kind of says, dismisses her and says, like, I don't remember anything from back then I really don't. And this woman is like, Oh, come on, you don't remember you don't remember and, and it's funny because I had forgotten that. And then I remembered that when Lita is talking to Nina, who's another mom, that she that she feels connected to she, she does remember what it was like to be a mom, but around another woman who is not yet a mother, she refuses to kind of let down that wall. She says, I don't remember anything from that time. And even the affair that Nina is having mirrors, the affair that Lita had when she was younger with this prominence. I don't know what his field is, but he's some acclaimed academic, and she, she has this affair with him. He's clearly somebody who's, you know, in a in a powerful position, who's older than her. And I thought, you know, this is what maybe is going to cause her to leave or whatnot, I was kind of thinking that's where the movie was going. And she does have this affair, and she does end her marriage. And she does leave her children for those three years that's mentioned. But the affair wasn't the what did it it was almost like a symptom or just a reaction to her desire to escape. It wasn't about this man that pushed her to leave it was something more something deeper, something more scary. It was just this impulse that she needed to, you know, go away because she wasn't happy. And we see the same thing and Nina where Nina is in the throes of just dealing with a very young I think her daughter is like three years old, very well, full child is the way that she's described. And Nina too, is having this affair. And she kind of describes the affair as like nothing, you know, nothing of no nothing worth, you know, mentioning it's not serious. And so the their their escape through these, through these affairs have similar motivations. And the thriller part of this movie is really what happens with the doll and the doll is the whole thing with the doll is basically at the earlier I shared that Lita and Nina kind of meet because Nina's little daughter, her three year old, Elena,
  
  Jackie Leonard 1:13:57
  wanders off and gets lost while everyone is spending time at this beach. And it's Lita who goes and finds her. Well, Elena has a doll that she loves, and at some point, during, you know, Lita, finding the little girl and bring her back to her mother. The doll goes missing. And Elena the little girl is freaking out. She's crying, she's hysterical. She can't be consoled. Nobody knows where this doll went. Everyone's frantically looking for the doll and their party. And, you know, eventually Lita goes away to go back to the place she's staying. And in her car, she's sitting there and she looks in her purse and she sees the doll and it's almost like in that moment, Lita doesn't even remember that she took the doll or how the doll ended up there, but she feels very, you know, uncomfortable because now she has something that everybody's looking for and what she's going to do, and that tension just continues to build throughout the film as you see Lita, you know Still having the doll not giving it up even when she's, you know, re running into these, this family and hearing about how awful it is without this doll and they can't find it. Lita is taking care of the stall and her privacy of her, you know, where she's staying for vacation and cleaning it and sleeping with it. We get this flashback of when she was younger, and her daughters were playing with a doll that was hers when she was a little girl. And that was the other name that was very similar to all the other names in this movie. The doll that Lita had when she was a little girl that she eventually gives to her daughter is named Mina, which Lena, Nina Mina, Alaina, like, these all just kind of blur together after a while. So, anyways, the stall at the end, Elena confesses to Nina that she's had it this whole time and it's just this very uncomfortable scene at the end. And Nina's so disturbed by the fact that Lita has been keeping this secret even though she knew how horrible Alaina felt and how stressed out you know, was over it. And so, she grabs it's all you know, and stabs Lita with the hat pin that Lita had gifted her with, and in a symbolic way, you know, that like represents this younger Lita stabbing the older Lita, possibly for her selfishness for what she did. That's one way I guess you could take it, it's, it's it's really thought provoking. There's so much meat in those scenes, especially when you think about how much these different characters these characters that Lita is encountering represent this past life and these past versions of herself. So I know I've gone very long, talking about everything from Kim Kardashian to the bad mom's movie to Maggie Gyllenhaal and the lost daughter. But it was really important to me to take the time to break down this idea of what a good mom and a bad mom is, and where that even comes from,
  
  Jackie Leonard 1:17:27
  I think we're getting to the meat of, of how much it's still exists in the way it's represented. The film, the last daughter, really is putting a magnifying glass to this feeling that we as moms, universally feel in all kinds of different ways and spectrums. And allowing us to think about what that means and and what we can do about it. I feel like that's the next step, right? It's like, what do we do with it? And how can we create an environment where we can feel these things be supported in them? And even consider what good could come if that was allowed and possible more if we were not indicted? And constantly being told that we're not working hard enough? Right? Like, what if we were told through the messages, and the stories that we're receiving that we are enough, and that we are the best moms, for our kids, and that the feelings that we have are not only normal, that in allowing ourselves to feel those feelings and not push them away? We are creating stronger bonds with our children as a result. So you know, I really think Maggie Gyllenhaal and Elena Ferrante for creating the last daughter, both in book and in movie form, so that we could have these conversations and I'm going to be quick and just say the stamp I would give this this movie. From the options of mom advocates, guilty pleasure or mom guilt. This is a Big Mom advocates stamp. I'm sure if we really you know looked at the movie with a fine tooth comb, we could find things to critique. But regardless, this is definitely a film that was made to advocate for moms to shine a light on stories that we don't hear enough about motherhood. And for that those are all the criterias I would say for entertainment that is worthy of the mom advocate stamp. So if you have not yet watched the last daughter, I highly recommend that you do so it is streaming currently on Netflix. As I mentioned, the last daughter has received a number of Oscar nominations. Maggie Gyllenhaal was nominated in the Best Adapted screening Play category. Olivia Coleman was nominated for Best Lead Actress and Jessie Buckley who plays the younger version of Lita was nominated for Best Supporting Actress. And there may be more nominations that I'm leaving out but as much as I don't like to follow these kind of award shows, I'm really hoping that Maggie Gyllenhaal wins for the Best Adapted Screenplay because I think it will help pave the way for more stories like these about motherhood. So anytime that that is possible, I'm going to cheer for it and hoped for it. So let's wrap up this episode with a nice reflective writing prompts. And this writing prompts going to be about maternal ambivalence. So I wanted to revisit the definition that I shared earlier, the one by Dr. Margo Laue, in which she calls it a mother's fleeting feelings of hate for a child which in turn actually strengthens her love. It's a forbidden and silenced but a daily part of mothering. So this concept of having mixed feelings about our children, extreme love and heat, like feelings I've already talked about my struggle with that word hate but contradictory feelings about our children that our intention with our own wants and needs. How does maternal ambivalence show up in your own life? What helps you hold such contradictory feelings and experiences?