Lies We Tell Ourselves About Writing with Kristan Barczak
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Today's Mother Writer is Kristan Barczak. When I met Kristan via social media, I instantly felt connected to her because of the open and refreshing way she shares about motherhood, confronting often rage inducing topics with humor, anecdotes, and data. In this episode, Kristan and I have a conversation about the lies we tell ourselves when it comes to writing. We also discuss our experiences in the world of academia and the impact it had on our confidence as writers. Lastly, Kristan shares what helped her find the writing that is working best for her right now. If you struggle with insecurity around calling yourself a writer or have felt intimidated in literary or academic spaces, this episode is just what you need to replace the lies you tell yourself with some much needed truths.
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Kristan’s journey from being a PhD student to becoming a legal copywriter and advocate for parents
When Kristan first identified herself as a writer
What a writer looked like in Kristan’s head when she was younger and how that impacts the way she sees herself today
Recognizing the lies we tell ourselves when it comes to writing and how to replace them with our own truths
Kristan reads an excerpt from her unpublished story about how moms do the impossible things
ABOUT TODAY’S GUEST - KRISTAN BARCZAK
KRISTAN BARCZAK is a full-time copywriter in the legal research industry, blogger/digital creator, and PhD dropout. She aims to use her writing to amplify the challenges many moms and caregivers face in the early stages of motherhood and is experimenting with comedy. As the mom to a delightfully spirited toddler, Kristan crams her writing into odd times and spaces throughout the day.
Follow Kristan on Instagram and Tik Tok, as well as on the Are We Bad Parents podcast.
MOTHERHOOD IN THE WILD
In this week’s segment, we discuss this Motherly article about domestic labor and breadwinning moms.
RESOURCES MENTIONED
WRITING PROMPT
How would you describe to your child what makes a writer a writer?
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Jackie Leonard 00:00
today's moderator is Kristen Barsac Kristen and I connected earlier in 2022 on social media, and I instantly felt connected to her because of the open and refreshing way she shares about motherhood, confronting often rage inducing topics with humor, anecdotes, and data. In this episode, Christina and I have a conversation about the lies we tell ourselves when it comes to our writing. We also discuss our experiences in the world of academia and the impact that had on our competence as writers, and Kristen shares what helped her find the writing that is working best for her right now. If you struggle with insecurity around calling yourself a writer, or have felt intimidated in literary or academic spaces, this episode is just what you need to replace the lies you tell yourself with some much needed truth. Before we dive into my conversation with Kristen, I wanted to shout out a podcast that I highly recommend you listen to if you enjoy mother writer. I will let the promo speak for itself. But this is a podcast that I have been a guest on and is created and hosted by a regular contributor for Mother's scope, Caitlin Salvini. She has been a contributor since 2021. This podcast has had some amazing writers on his guests talking about their postpartum experiences and how they navigate living creative lives alongside bearing children.
promo 01:51
On the first season of the postpartum production podcast, we are talking to artists, writers, painters, musicians, choreographers, dancers, and more, who are balancing the daily bind of caregiving for children and creating art. Our conversations lead to fascinating and inspiring revelations about what it means to be a mother, a caregiver and an artist in today's capitalist world. We asked our guests to define a few critical terms, how would you define postpartum
02:22
so it's forever. And there is something important about like centering, the moment of birth, like it's postpartum.
02:35
Postpartum is messy, squishy, sacred, top topsy turvy,
02:45
that period in which there's not much daylight between you and the pregnancy, and birth itself.
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What is production or productivity to you?
03:01
It's not measured in the ways that you might measure them before having kids because your time isn't grown. So if you are able to have one logical, articulate thought that day about your book that feels productive to me,
03:15
I wasn't being productive in other ways. Like when I was running, racing around the house, I wasn't like sending an email, I was cleaning up the whatever and feeling like I'd achieved something, I would open the refrigerator and just look at the milk that I had pumped just to feel like I had accomplished something concrete in a day.
03:33
I'm trying to let go of the idea of constant production being the end goal, and more towards observation or harmony or being as being the end goal.
promo 03:55
What is creativity?
03:59
Creativity is connecting with your soul and your surroundings.
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Creativity can emerge in any kind of field, as usual, right? For me, it's not the creativity. That's the issue. It's like, who's getting to say what's creative and what isn't? And what kind of creative endeavors matter and who gets to decide what matters and what doesn't. It's just
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that deep, completely embodied, completely focused state where it doesn't feel like laborious work.
promo 04:38
I'm your host, Caitlin Sala Meany, and this is the postpartum production podcast. We invite you to listen in wherever you subscribe to your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at postpartum production podcast. You can find us on substack and also on the web at postpartum production.com.
Jackie Leonard 05:22
Hi, Kristen, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. I'm super happy to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited to be able to have a conversation with you. I've been really loving just everything that you've been putting out on social media and just to talk about motherhood and writing, and how they, you know, work together. And also clash is I think, a very, you know, it's a topic that I think we can both really dive into. Today, we're specifically going to talk about actually like, I guess what I would call sort of impostor syndrome. But more specifically, as a writer, the struggle of, you know, telling ourselves lies about what makes a real writer and what is a writer in the first place. So, really looking forward to getting into that. But first, I would love for you to introduce yourself to those listening. Yeah, of course. Yeah, definitely. Super excited to be here. Thank you so much. My name is Kristen. I am a mom to she's almost 18 months old. So she probably will be but it's fast comes out, she is a very spirited toddler. I am also a writer and a few different capacities, I guess I am a full time copywriter for a legal research software company. And so I write a lot of blogs and ad copy for them. That's not very personal to me. But I'm writing. And I have recently started doing a little bit more on social media. So my husband and I create a lot of different things together, we've recently gotten into like skits and tic TOCs. And that's been sort of new and fun. And it's been interesting to sort of flex my creative muscle there. And I only say this, because I think it's sort of irrelevant. I'm a PhD dropout. I was writing in that capacity for a while as well, and recently decided to sort of leave that part of my life behind to leave more room for creative endeavors. And yeah, that's sort of that's me in a nutshell. So I see a lot of you on social media, obviously. But what I what I mean to say is, I see you having a lot of fun. And I'm, I think that that's so key to doing anything on social media, but also, it sounds like you are moving toward creating a life that works best for you, versus maybe the things that you thought you needed to do. So I think you're going to bring a lot of wisdom in that capacity to this conversation around writing. Thank you. That's actually a very big compliment.
Kristan Barczak 07:53
It's funny, I value fine a whole lot. That's something that I've always kind of known about myself. And it's something that I've tried to really commit to this year. I think mom's probably aren't having enough fun. I actually think there's an article on that somewhere. And so yeah, we are we're having I say we I'm having fun, my husband who does this with me, he's having fun, and we're just kind of seeing how it goes. You know, it's been it's been a good time. It's been fun. I've had a lot of moments, especially when I look back at when my son when we were, you know, we had one and my son was the brown that same age, it was just like a lot of times you have to just kind of like throw your hands up and be like, This is hilarious. Yes, hilarious and awful is like a great way to categorize the toddler phase, just because some of the stuff she does when I know I'm not supposed to be laughing, but it's like, well, everything is chaos. There are gross things on me all the time and what are you going to do but laugh about it and embrace the chaos? I guess it's that's a lot easier said than done. I'm saying it like I'm just like that all the time. But you know, it's a
Jackie Leonard 08:56
it's a good way to it's like, yeah, it's a goal. It's a mindset that you try to work toward every day, right. I also have a legal background. I feel like I've done so many different things that I'm like little the last interview I did was like, Yeah, I used to be a teacher. And I'm like, Yeah, I also have a legal background. I was I was a paralegal for I mean, maybe eight years, seven years, I don't know, a long time. My first job out of college and I thought about going to law school at one point and I don't know. Sliding doors. Yeah. Yeah, the legal world is a lot of writing. I don't think people realize, yeah,
Kristan Barczak 09:33
it is. And it's interesting, because I don't have a legal background. But I got hired at this company, because I've done academic research. And they thought I could write sort of in that formal capacity. And yeah, be a little privy to how often attorneys right and how, what a big challenge that can be and how we can serve, you know, to meet those needs. And so yeah, I'm not not super familiar with the legal world, but here I am writing about it.
Jackie Leonard 10:02
Well, and that I think should be encouraging to anyone who might want to pursue writing and a more kind of like a less creative way more informational, or, you know, I don't know the word to use, but just like a more professional kind of writing. And you don't necessarily need to have a background in the topic that you're writing to people value writers who just know how to write.
Kristan Barczak 10:24
Exactly. I also think and I'm a little biased, but writers can be really good listeners, just because we're generally observant, I think, and that's, you know, sort of fuels our writing. But that's really what they were looking for somebody who could listen to attorneys listen to the people who actually do know the legal world and reflect that information back to them in a way that makes sense. So that's that's all that's all a copywriters doing.
Jackie Leonard 10:50
That's really insightful, because I think we can become like chameleons that way where it's like, oh, like, I'm not medical, but you know, I'm a really good listener. So I can really kind of digest and imitate, and then start to accurately represent what you do. So that's exactly, yeah, these are all good skill. These are like writing resumes here. Which is not quite what we're going to talk about. But I do like that. We're touching on that. Before I get so before we get too far into the writer talk, I do want to segue into our motherhood in the wild segments. This is when we talk about where are we see motherhood discussed out in the real world in the wild, either in real life, online social media, all those things. So what do you want to bring to the you noticed in the wild? Yeah.
Kristan Barczak 11:43
So I came across an article on LinkedIn, actually, that's sort of I was never on LinkedIn before I became a copywriter. And now I find myself on there a lot. But motherly, produced this article that summarized another report about the unequal distribution of household laborers among moms who are married to men. And basically the report said that women across the world spend an average of three to six hours per day on old slash domestic labor. And meanwhile, their male counterparts, were only spending about half hour to two hours on household labor. And that's something that's super top of mind for me anyways, I'm, when I say working mom, I work in a paid working job all moms work. But I am a working mom and my husband is actually very privy to that issue. We're reading a book called fairplay together right now, that talks about evening out that unequal load a little bit. But it's interesting, because we will make content about this, and we will get a lot of pushback, particularly from men. And just to be transparent, I suppose. Yeah, who could have thought, but it just it really, you know, I came across that article right before I knew it was gonna be on this podcast. And it really made me think about how much harder it must be. And it is I say, it must be like, I don't know how much harder it is for moms to find space, to pursue a hobby to pursue something they're passionate about, like writing, like creative writing, when the other thing that mother Lee said is that over 50% of women have reported to be the breadwinner in their family. So women are working full time. They're moms all the time that never ends. And then they're coming home to do three to six hours of household labor, and they're supposed to find time to creatively. Right. And I know that moms are doing it, we're doing it, but it just made me think like, wow, how and how do we make this better? For for moms, but yeah, so that's just sort of what's been on my mind lately.
Jackie Leonard 13:53
Yeah, I appreciate that. They highlighted not just the domestic labor, like the number of hours, but also alongside the reality that these mothers are also in the workforce that you know, it's a 60% right of them. Yeah. Because I think for me, I like and I think this is an outdated assumption is when you hear oh, these mothers are working, doing all this domestic labor, they must not work. And that's not true. That's not true. And the reality is, so not on top of the, you know, the workload that they have from home, they are also expected to perform in a professional setting.
Kristan Barczak 14:33
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I know. And because I even thought about that at first too. I'm like, you know, well, you kind of have this mental image of the mother at home and even then it's too much to shoulder by yourself, you know, but Yeah, apparently, in 2022 the there's like the state of motherhood report survey that motherly does and yeah, over half of women, not even as reported to be in the workforce, but reported to be the breadwinner. Yeah, and so it's like, okay, yeah, you're working, you also have sort of this financial pressure, I was the breadwinner in my family for a little bit when my husband was looking for a job. And I was like, Dang, this is a lot of pressure. Like, I'm trying to keep this little human alive. I'm trying to keep myself alive. And well. And also, you know, if something were to happen, if I were to lose my job or anything like that, it would be a really difficult situation for us. So moms are shouldering a good bit of pressure, and a good bit of the workload just in every sense of the term. And yeah, no wonder, no wonder it's so difficult for us to pursue the things that we you know, that fulfill us that bring us life. So,
Jackie Leonard 15:40
yeah. Thank you for that distinction. Yes. So that means, I mean, obviously, right, more than 50. So 50%, at least based on this study are the breadwinners, which means that more than that are very likely, obviously, either, you know, equal, you know, making equal to similar amounts as their partner, or making less, but still contributing to, you know, the funds that go into that household. So, to see that alongside three to four hours a day of domestic labor. It's, I mean, I and I, this is why I try to be very sensitive to when I say make time to write, I know that very realistically, that's like, a, a problem, more than just like a mother who want like, is making the commitment or, or like doesn't want it enough. That's why sometimes like, you know, the things that are like, you know, if you really wanted this, you would do it, it's like, that's not real, real life anymore. Like there are so many things that get in our way a lot of times. And that's why it's like, what's like the 1% that you can do right now to make yourself like, feel like a human being besides or like a robot that's just working all day. Exactly. We will link that that article, maybe you could send that to me. And I'll also link the the book that you referenced, I actually also thought about a book, essential labor by Angela Garbus is a great one. It talks all she wrote it during the pandemic when it comes to like the workload of mothers, but it's obviously relevant to anytime I just read an article that talked about how, and I don't have this statistic in the top of my head. But basically, in the month of October, more parents had to call out of work for like childcare issues, then, at any time in the pandemic, because of how many children are sick right now. So like, work is very much top of mind as well, in a different way after I saw that. So I think we could have a whole episode about it. But I'm glad that you brought that up. It really speaks to the unique challenges of trying to write while being a mother, when you highlighting that statistic, you know, is like a tangible data that confirms that mothers? Yeah, it's hard. And I don't like to always generally, like specify mothers, because I know like parenting in general does not just for mothers. But so often, the statistics just show time and again, that mothers the construct of being a mother adds this extra labor, the sexual load for all kinds of reasons. So it's important to distinguish that. Yes, yeah.
Kristan Barczak 18:22
The way you just said that was really awesome. Yeah. Because that's a construct of being a mother adding this additional layer. It's just it's so true. So
Jackie Leonard 18:30
yeah, like, I hate labels, but then I'm like, well, motherhood is this construct, there's so much loaded into motherhood, that even if you are not a mother, you are like, you pay for it in different ways. So it affects everybody. It doesn't just affect somebody who chooses to have children who happens to be, you know, identify as a woman or identify as a mother. It affects everybody. Whether we like it or not. So to segue, this isn't like the smoothest segue, but I do want to go back to talking about you as a writer. And would you first before we get into like the meat of our conversation? On the lies we tell ourselves? Can you share? Like, when did you first start to write or feel like you would identify as a writer? Tell us where that started?
Kristan Barczak 19:21
It's funny because it's like two very different answers. There's I can remember when I first started writing, but when I actually first started telling myself Okay, I am a writer came much, much later. I have been writing for as long as I can remember, my grandma actually recently gave me one of those stapled together construction paper booklets, I don't know, we're like an elementary school and you would write down a story. And she just recently gave me a couple of those. And so I guess you know, I did it at school, but I would go to her house and that was like the activity I wanted to do and I have really embarrassing Word documents stuffed away somewhere of like sixth grade stories that I wrote. So I've always very much enjoyed writing. And then around 2015 Right after I graduated college, I remember getting a new laptop and I was like, I can finally start a blog. Like that was what was top of mind for me. But even then, I writers were people that publish things. In my mind writers were people who were like, tweed coats and satin little cottages in England, I don't know, I just had this image of like, somebody like smoking a pipe. And actually, as I'm thinking about it, it was an image of a man like this, like, you know, very stereotypical, like classic literature author. And so that was not what I was doing. I was actually an analyst right out of college. And so I was very much what I thought to be a numbers person. And if you asked me, if I was creative, I would have told you no, I really didn't think that I was I had creative people in my family. And I saw them making stuff. But I didn't see me making stuff, I didn't see my output the same way that I saw their output. So I was like, obviously, not a writer. And then I had my daughter in the middle of a PhD program. And I had to get super serious about how I wanted to spend my time, because as we've discussed, moms don't have a lot of it. So I realized about six months into her life that I was super unhappy, as a full time PhD student and mom, and I really had no career prospects other than eventually graduating and being a professor, and I didn't, I didn't want to do that anymore. And so I started thinking about, well, what are my skills? What can I do with my life, and the common thread behind everything that I've ever done, ever enjoyed was writing. And I really had nothing to lose. So I was like, I'm just going to pursue this, I'm just going to start trying to be a writer, I'm just gonna write more and see what happens. And I started applying for jobs that had writer in the description, and sort of ended up as this in this copywriter role. And at this point, it's really interesting, because I write less creatively right now because I have this job. But I do feel a little bit more confident now. And it's really just been in the past year to say, you know, what, yeah, like, I write stuff a lot. And even even when I'm not writing creatively as much, or even when, you know, my job, turns into like something else, because that's sort of how jobs work. You know, if I'm not actively writing every day, that doesn't take away from the fact that like, at my core, this is what I am, this is what I bring to the world. And I don't know why it took almost 30 years to get there. But that's sort of that's, that's, that's just how it happened. You know, it really took it took my kid coming into this world to give me some perspective about what I wanted to be.
Jackie Leonard 22:52
I so much of what you just said about what you just said at the end really is resonating right now, because I similarly, like came back to writing after I had my son, and realized, like, Oh, I've been writing this whole time, but I'm more committed to it now. Like I see it as more of like what I do. And almost every time I've interviewed a writer so far, they say, you know, when I was a little kid, I did these things, and I made these books and stuff. And I it's so normalized to me, because that's, that's who I was that I imagined everybody that that now that my son is five. He's, he's, he loves all kinds of things. And he's brilliant, but he that that's not what he's drawn to. I was doing that stuff before, you know, five years old. And so I'm realizing that there is something you know, that, you know, I don't know what makes a writer but there is something that separates us from other people. And other people have their own unique, unique special gifts. But as a writer, that is a type of person that is somebody who is called to it in a special way and to see how that's evolved for you. When I got a laptop to I was like, Oh, I can write, I don't have to journal in a book anymore. I can do my journaling on the laptop, and you were like, I can write a blog and you know, it opens doors in different ways, depending on you know, who you are. So, I think that's really cool. I also love that you said that, like the image I had of a writer was this, you know, this specific person in a tweet, you know, that was a man, you know, that's very interesting. I think that's a great like, writing question. Like, you know, what is the image of a writer to you, like, write that down? Because I think it's very telling.
Kristan Barczak 24:36
Yes, yeah, exactly. Because yeah, I don't fit that image. I don't own any tweet, and I am rarely I'm rarely alone. You know, it's not like I have this little like, writing cabin that I go to you know, so I, I definitely don't fit the image of the writer that was in my head and I kind of had to ask myself, you know, where did that even come from because it's not like my mom was an avid reader and is an avid reader still. And I grew up reading books by women, you know, I don't know where that I guess I could take some guesses. But I don't know, I can't pinpoint an exact moment when that image became the image of the writer. But it definitely sort of stood in my way of being like, No, you know, I can be a writer, even when this there's a toddler running around, and I'm in sweatpants and writing this down on my phone, you know, like, it's, I can still write stuff. And to your point, you know, it is, there's something about it. I mean, just like, I'm not drawn to play instruments at all. I know people that are, and I've tried, and I just can't, I don't, I can't, I can't stick with it. It doesn't bring me any sort of joy, it brings me a lot of frustration. And in a similar way, I think people there are people that hate writing, but or that don't like it at all. And there's just something about, you know, me or us where it's like, okay, this is actually a way that I want to spend my time and I can't really explain why but it is.
Jackie Leonard 26:06
So. And I don't mean to say that if you didn't, you know, love writing, when you were a child that you thought that means you're not a writer, but to speak to this conversation topic where, you know, we're talking about the lies that we tell ourselves about what and who a real writer is, and what it looks like to be to live a life as a writer. I think the story that you shared where ever since I was a kid, you know, my grandma gave me these books that I make. I mean, I think that's enough to say like, you have a like a writer, part of you. Like there's a part of you in there. That's a writer, if you were working a job as a barista and not writing, but you found yourself drawn to, you know, jot down little like lines here and there. Or were really attracted to just like the dream of writing, like, I think that makes you a writer. And I love that you said that part of that vision of like, the writer in your head was this person, like a little cabin? Because I think we associate so much of like the writer life to the solitude that just isn't reality?
Kristan Barczak 27:14
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And actually, a lot of my like, best writing has been done alongside with other people, not in this metaphorical cabin. Yeah, it's, it's just like you said, it's not reality. And not only is it not reality, in the sense that it's not realistic for me. I mean, I don't even really like being alone that much. You have to like, go out and pursue that. But also, yeah, it's not reality in the sense that isolation is not necessarily what brings out our best work, or best inspiration. I mean, it might, it might bring out some productivity in the real sense of the term, you know, but it's not going to bring out this. It's not going to bring out creativity in the way that I think we've been made to believe it can I guess it's different for everybody. I don't want to say that it can't. But you don't need a cabin to be a good writer is I think what I'm trying to get to.
Jackie Leonard 28:07
Yeah, but I think it's important to pull back the curtain, right? Like, I don't know what people did back in the 1800s. Right, maybe that's what they had to do to be able to write because they were like, literally had to like write on a page with like ink and stuff, right? But, but in our modern world, and I think a lot of times we associate what when when we say we want to we're not writing, like we're not a writer, we actually mean we're not like a published author is usually what people mean, right? And I in the reality of what it looks like to be a published writer, is that you are not doing this alone. A lot of times you have like a coach, you have an agent, you have a publicist, you have readers, you have a writing community that you're tapped into, you have connections through whatever program you took, you know, went to school for if you're you know, have a degree in writing, like all of those things are not are the opposite of alone, right? Yes. So much support. That's so true. That's not shared enough. Like you go to a bookstore, pick up any book that's been recently published, I bet you you can link that to, you know, 10 plus people that at least that have gone into making that book come, come to be. So yeah, that's like, definitely a lie that we tell ourselves as that I think is put out there about writing is that it's a very solitary practice that you should be doing that should that is done best alone. Yes. I'm curious because I think so you you were in a Ph. D. program. I know what was the PhD program that you
Kristan Barczak 29:50
like? It was educational leadership. Okay. Yeah. The focus on curriculum, culture and learning. Yeah.
Jackie Leonard 29:59
So or academia, you were in the world of academia, higher learning. Um, I have a Master's in Fine Arts in creative writing. So I was in like a literary but academic world for a while. I could be kind of putting a lot of like pointing fingers that this it's the institution of writing or the academia setting. I love college, by the way. But I do think a lot of the stories or the lies that are that we receive about writing, start there, or have a degree. There's this like elitism to the literary life that I think is supporting these lies.
Kristan Barczak 30:42
Yes, yes. And it's, it's interesting, it's such a double edged sword for me, because my ability to put my thoughts on paper in a way that made sense to me, improved as a result of being in a PhD program. But I think the important thing for me there is that it didn't necessarily improve, I think, because of academia and the structure, and improve because I found a really good mentor, and my program, and I think you can find mentors anywhere, I have a mentor in my job right now, who is I mean, doing amazing things for me and my writing. So that can exist outside of academia, I, and again, it's so complicated, because without the PhD program, I'm not sure if I would have ever found the confidence to say I am a writer, just because that program gave me a lot of time to write. However, academia is definitely very entrenched, and you must write this way. And it has to look like this. And if it's not this, it's not real. It's not. I'm like using air quotes. Right now. It's not real. It's not real scholarship. It's not real writing. I had a mentor who pushed back on that a lot. And actually, if I would have continued my dissertation was going to be a fiction novella. And I was going to use that to make some points about trauma. But I mean, academia is academia as academia, it still puts you in this sort of, I don't know, in a box. And even if you have great mentors, and great in great programs, when you go to a conference, it's like this reminder. Because there actually are people in tweed that probably do, you know, sit in cabins, and it's, it's like the no matter how much the conference or the discipline will claim to be like, No, we're not like that. Like we've unlearned that. There is definitely still this sense of like, who is elite, who has made it, who writes the good stuff, and who, I mean, this is gonna sound really harsh, these are not my words, and just the way it feels to be there who doesn't count yet. And so again, complicated while the PhD program definitely gave me the boost, I needed to identify like to say that I am a writer, the separation from academia has also been very instrumental now, like, I think I had to come away from it, to really start to explore the kind of writer that I actually want to be, and the way that I want to bring information to the public. Both were critical. It's I don't know, it's really interesting, and it's really complicated.
Jackie Leonard 33:27
I'm like, laughing Yeah, I got laughing at you have you? There's a podcast called sounds like a cult, I think they did a cult of academia. But as you were talking, I'm like, Oh my gosh, we both defected from the cult of academia. That's like what it is. I will never like similar to what you said, I would never tell somebody like don't go to college like or don't do this. Like if you want to do it, like do it. And one of the things that I would also highlight is the community the the the ability, access to a mentor ship, or the access to people who are studying the same thing as you that is a rare gift that academia makes a lot easier. I think you can find that anywhere. But it's a lot easier when you are in a program and you like have to focus all your attention on it. It's all there. There's so many different resources. But I have found in like, as an English major and getting my masters in creative writing, it is very alive and well this this just this air of elitism when it comes to what makes literary work, but what is considered a literate literary work what's considered you know, like, there's like a status there. I've been wondering, I've been really curious to go to a conference that I used to go to a lot. That's Aw, P I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's more like in the literary realm, but it's like, I don't know what's association of writers and poets. I don't know. I don't I don't know off the top of my head, but it went to a number of them all over the country. And it's in Seattle next year, and I'm really tempted to go But I'm scared for that very reason. I'm like, I've been so removed from that world that I don't know if I want to go back to it. It's what really tore down my, my competence as a writer. It also helped me as a writer. But I noticed that because of what I came to understand and believe about what makes a writer, I was myself not writing, I was myself holding back my writing and not sharing it because it didn't feel ready. So I was censoring and gatekeeping, my own writing based on the beliefs and the lies that I was telling myself. You kind of touched on this, but is was leaving the program part of what has helped you feel more free as a writer?
Kristan Barczak 35:46
Yes. And this is sort of I mean, a back and forth in my own head, because there's always this little voice that's like, oh, well, you left, like you're not a real writer now, because you've left this behind, and you're not publishing work right now. So all of that what's been really, really interesting is leaving the program has given me time to do the whole digital creation thing on social media, which does not sound like writing right away. I make a lot of reels, and I make a lot of tiktoks. I have a podcast, and all of those things are very visual, however, I write captions. And, you know, I still we write scripts, my husband and I will do skits, like full on minute and a half long skits and I write those scripts. And that short for that short form that really sort of like quit be writing has been a transferable skill that I've learned from my job. And I am having so much fun with it. And it's funny because I even hesitated to like bring this up on this podcast because it doesn't fit what I think writing or not what I think but what I have been told, writing is supposed to be because it is short, and it is quippy. But right now it is the writing that fits best with my life because of the aforementioned toddler. You know, I so badly want to be able to bring, I was writing a blog post like once a week for a while before I started my job, I would love to bring that back, I was starting to kind of dig into like these online publications where I could push my writing out a little bit. And I love doing that stuff. But the reality is, I'm writing a full time job right now I write blog posts for them. And so the capacity that I have left is just not there. But I have been able to sort of scratch that itch, so to speak by writing this very short form content for social media. And had I not left my Ph. D program, I would have never had the time. And I also don't think I would have had the confidence to pursue that so heavily because I felt super silly for like the first two months. I'm only a month like four maybe. So I'm only two months removed from that feeling. But I felt really, really silly for a while. I felt very judged, not by anyone by people I made up in my head, probably I don't think anybody was paying attention to me. But you tell you so you tell yourself that you're and so without leaving academia, I don't think I would have you talked about how much fun it seems like I'm having, yeah, that that connection, finding that connection between writing something and having it be fun, and just having it be for me, that is not something that I would have done in the realm of PhD land, so to speak. So it's it's been very instrumental in sort of feeling a little bit more free to explore different forms. Also, to that end, not to keep rambling about it. But writing a video script is not something that I thought I would have done, you know, I wouldn't have expected myself doing. And I've not done that in my job. And now I'm also doing it as a hobby, and it is a very fun form of writing. And it's easy. The last video script I wrote with my husband, we wrote it laying in bed at the end of the night, toddler's asleep. And we're like, Okay, we have to get this done. And we were cracking up. And so I'm like writing the script. I'm crying. I'm laughing so hard. And it was just fun. It was fun. And it was for us. And we still we wrote it with the intent to get a message out about the unequal distribution of household labor. And it still felt very meaningful. And I was able to do it at 10pm on my phone. So you know, finding the kind of writing that works for me is definitely something that was only helped by leaving the Ph. D. program. Yeah, yeah. No, to my PhD program,
Jackie Leonard 39:53
ya know, the academic world and the people who have brought us to where we are today. I love I think you really hit the nail on the head when you talk about how, you know, the these, like shorter things that you're doing the writing that you're still doing, but in like more condensed are quick ways, is still writing it, but there is this stigma that we put on ourselves or this, you know, critic out there that is judging that that's not real writing, that's not serious. That's not this and that. And it's a lie. It's not, it's not, it's not coming from anything that we should validate. But it's out there. And I think the fact that you're at least acknowledging it, and being like, well, it's there, and I'm gonna do it anyway. Or I'm gonna, you know, just let it sit there for a bit and see, you know, how time makes it quieter or louder, we'll figure it out. I think that's so necessary. Because it's true, there are there is like, going to be that doubt, we can't like completely erase it. I think every writer has it. And, you know, just to, to reflect some things back to you. Like, when I see what you've created, I am like, wow, that's really smart. That's so well said that, you know, you could tell that there is somebody who is a skilled writer, and knows how to speak to an audience. And so like, those are all things that every writer wants to be. And I think when you're like doing it, and then having those insecurities, we forget that all of those skills are still being applied to what we're doing no matter what it is.
Kristan Barczak 41:38
Yeah, thank you that that means a lot. Because yeah, I mean, the doubt, to your point is always there. I also think you made a really good point that it's there for every writer, like, if I wasn't telling myself this lie, I'd be telling myself some other life, I wasn't doing this form of writing, I'd be questioning some other form of writing that I was doing. I think it's always, always a struggle. And it reminded me, I watched an interview clip with Dan Levy recently. And they asked him, you know, at what point did you begin to feel confident in your ability to write a TV series and he straight up was like, asked me that question again in 10 years, because I'm not there yet. And I love that because I think, Dan, look, he's a genius. And it just, it reminded me that, yeah, it is a constant. It's a constant battle with yourself, to find the confidence to put yourself out there as a writer. There are a million little voices telling you not to do it. But I find it so life giving and important and that voice is just going to have to be quiet. And I'm gonna do it anyway.
Jackie Leonard 42:43
side notes, since you said you're a Dan Levy fan. If you haven't watched the big brunch, it's on HBO Max. It's really good. It's a cooking show. But he created it. And I I'm a new fan of his because I have not really watched a lot of his stuff. But that made me a fan. So I think you'll really like it. It's a good holiday
Kristan Barczak 43:04
show. So yeah, definitely to check it out. For sure.
Jackie Leonard 43:08
I like to have like a few takeaways or things to, you know, wrap up our conversation. I've been taking notes. So it's not like I'm like doing other things while we're talking. But I've been taking notes. And actually they're like more like questions, what's usually their takeaways. But I think these are things that people can reflect on based on what you've shared and what we've talked about today. I think the first thing to consider if you notice that you deal with some I'm not a writer feelings, or you feel like you're not what a quote unquote, real writer is. The first thing that I think people should think about and consider is, what does a writer look like in your head? Right? So like, isn't that what, who is? What is this writer that you feel like you are not? What does that person look like? Give them features like you shared between? I think mine is like a combination of Jane Austen and a New York City kind of very posh writer on the West Coast, so like, automatically, West Coast writers are like not respecting. The second question would be, who are your writing influences? And also your right when it you know, who is a part of your writing community? Because I think those people are part of who contribute to some of the, the voices that we hear, yes. Or we can figure out if they're coming from like an earlier time in your life. Sometimes, like we respect these writers, and we're like, wait a second, like, That person doesn't traditionally right. So why am I you know, giving so much leverage to these old, archaic images. The third thing to consider is, what does your critic look like? You know, give that person some features. Who is that inner critic that is telling knew all these lies.
Kristan Barczak 45:01
That's a good one. They're all good. But
Jackie Leonard 45:05
that can be kind of fun. I've heard that like, you can actually like visually, like, put them away once you like have a feature or something about them. For how would you? How would your greatest supporter describe you as a writer?
Kristan Barczak 45:22
Oh, that's a good one, too.
Jackie Leonard 45:24
And the fifth one, reflect on the ways that you are writing right now in your life. So you did that as well, you talked about all the different ways that you're writing. And I think that's important. I've done that with reading too, because I give myself a hard time for not reading enough. And then I sit down, I'm like, wait a second, I like read that essay online. I read all this. And I and I was really criticizing myself for not reading enough books, but it looks different. But I'm still reading. And I think that's, you can apply that same thing to the writing that you do. And you did so well.
Kristan Barczak 45:57
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I do the same thing with books to where I'm like, Ah, I'm really just not reading like I used to, but I also used to not have a kid. So you know, keeping that in mind, and then recognizing that yeah, I'm still, like, take some stock. I'm still reading, this is still happening, despite the never ending to do list that comes with motherhood. So
Jackie Leonard 46:20
I'm kind of putting on a spot on the spot here. But do you have like a truth that you would like to put out there about being a writer to combat all these lies that we've talked about?
Kristan Barczak 46:30
Oh, okay. Let me think for just a second. That's really good. I'm trying to think about what I would tell myself, Oh, I'm nothing but what I would tell my daughter. I think, I think the truth that I would put out there about writing is writing is as simple as noticing something and talking about it. And you don't have to talk about it to anybody else. You can talk about it in your journal, you can talk about it in the Notes app, on your phone. There are a lot of constructs out there about what people say Good writing is or bad writing is, but but no one, no one starts in a place of meeting all of those standards. And I'm not even sure that they're worth striving for. I think the truth that I that I try to come back to is that if I want to write all it takes us noticing something and acting in some capacity upon the thing that I've noticed.
Jackie Leonard 47:33
Yeah. Beautiful. On that notes, Kristen, would you be able to share a little bit of your writing with us before we wrap up our conversation?
Kristan Barczak 47:46
I can. I won't read this whole thing. We'd be here way too long. But I have an excerpt from a piece that I wrote, it's not published on anything official. I will put it on my website, though. And I wrote this about a year ago, my daughter was six months old, she was going through the worst sleep regression to this day. I mean, newborn phase is obviously very difficult. But at this point, I was trying to, to work and to live my life. And I wrote this piece or most of it in the rocking chair. While I was trying to get her she'd fallen asleep, but I couldn't put her in the crib. So I was stuck there. And I wrote this on my notes app on my phone. And it's just about how moms do the impossible. And so I have a little bit from that that I'll read. Okay. Motherhood does that there are so many things that we as mothers and caregivers do that are utterly impossible by most standards. And yet, motherhood teaches us how to push past the notion of impossible encouraging us to find a bright light of possibility within ourselves. As I write this, I am rocking my six month old hopefully into a deep sleep. It's just past midnight and my otherwise decent sleeper has sworn off sleeping in her crib. A problem that I believe has been escalating to this point over the past couple of weeks. I haven't been to bed yet and I know that once I do succeed in getting her down, she will likely with again in a couple of hours we might repeat this process. Importantly, I'll reiterate here that I said decent sleep or not good in between night wakings and pregnancy insomnia. I'm actually not sure when I last had a full night of sleep. So I tried to be calm. I tried to be a source of comfort for her as a breastfeeding mom. I tried to take on the majority of Night Waking stop resentment knowing it's likely counterproductive to wake my husband anyway. But tonight I lost it. After multiple failed attempts to transfer to their crib. I left her nursery and stormed into the bedroom I shared with my husband. I can't get her down. I don't know what to do. I can't remember exactly what I said after that, but I know I began sobbing I know I said a few cuss words. I know at some point I yelled I hate this. I just broke. My husband went to her while I drink water. Close my eyes. Since I tried to calm myself, I knew somehow that I would need to go back in there. I knew as I listened to her cry that she needed me. And I knew that she needed me to be emotionally regulated so that I could regulate her. The question I asked myself during labor echoed in my mind, how, how am I going to do this? How can I come for her again, I have nothing left a few. There, I found it, the spark the light. And again, that's just a little bit from it. But I wanted to share it since that was not written. While I was wearing tweed in a cabin. It was written right after I had a mental breakdown, in the rocking chair, with my daughter asleep on me. So yeah,
Jackie Leonard 50:42
I will say and I will stand by it. I think some of the best things I've read in the last few years have been written on the Notes app. So you are just continuing to prove me rights. Thank you so much for reading that and do put that up there online, so we could read it all. Before we go, Chris, then can you share some of what you're doing? You're doing some amazing things out in the digital space that people have access to and how people can contact you and
Kristan Barczak 51:10
follow along. Yeah, for sure. So I have an Instagram account called finding me as mom and there's underscores for spaces. I talk a lot about the process of like re self discovery after you have a child. And I do that alongside my husband a lot of the time. He's the atypical dad on Instagram, and we have a podcast together called are we bad parents. And, again, underscores for spaces so you can find us there on Instagram or on Tik Tok. And on Apple, podcasts and Spotify. So, yeah, that's, that's where I am. And I'd love to connect with people. And especially other I mean, I love to connect anyone that especially other mother writers, it's always it's always fun. So, yeah,
Jackie Leonard 51:53
yeah, thank you. Um, I will be sure to link all of those things in the show notes. So those of you listening have easy access to it. And again, just thanks so much for sharing your story and this conversation. It was just so affirming. And so like, I could just keep going, but we'll end here and I'll leave the listeners with the discussion questions to reflect on everything that we shared today. Thank you so much.
Kristan Barczak 52:19
Thank you, thank you. I was really
Jackie Leonard 52:43
moved by Kristen's reframe when she said, in order to come up with a truth about writing, she would imagine she was saying it to her daughter. So for this week's writing prompts, inspired by my conversation with Kristen today, all about the lies that we tell ourselves as writers, we're going to do the same thing. Today's writing prompt is how would you describe to your child what makes a writer a writer